Surge City, tried everything?

sproggy

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I've reached the 'pulling my hair out' stage with my surging problems which are approaching the misfire level. They're getting gradually worse and I now suspect that setup isn't the (only) issue. I have:

Set rocker end float
Adjusted valve clearances
Balanced throttles (several times with a twinmax - checked using a carbtune just to be sure the twinmax was working OK)
Run injector cleaner through the system
Tried fuel from different suppliers
Replaced plugs

But the surging/misfire between 2k and 3k rpm on a light throttle is the worst I've ever experienced on an 1100/1150. Bike is a 2002 single spark 1150 with 27k miles on the clock. With more throttle it pulls like a train. Above 3k rpm it's as smooth as a very smooth thing. It idles well too, although pick up from idle is not always smooth - the longer it's been idling (in traffic) the worse the pickup is and the worse it runs/more it surges. When it's cold (up to 3 bars on the temp gauge) there's barely any surging - it's like a different bike. BBPower chip fitted so no CCP issues, but it behaved the same before I fitted the chip so the chip isn't the cause. Throttle cables are seated properly. TPS voltage set to .380 although I've tried it at .360 and .370 too.

I did a bit of investigating last night and found a suspicious lack of paint blobs on the throttle stop screws - they might have been messed with? So I tried checking throttle balance with the air bypass screws closed but it wouldn't idle (too slow). There is a very loud tapping (not ticking) from both throttle bodies at idle, worse from the left (TPS) side - applying light pressure to the cable cam to hold them closed does deaden this noise a bit but I can feel the pulsing through my finger when I do that. I don't remember that being the case on any other bikes I've had. Fuel pump makes an occasional 'bzzzttt' when the bike's idling - can't remember that from other bikes either.

I have vague theories about fuel pressure or incorrect throttle stop adjustment, but the former is probably unlikely since it runs so well at higher revs and the plug colour is spot on. The latter is more likely but would it cause surging/misfiring above idle when the throttle opening is controlled by throttle cable adjustment and not the stop screws? Any ideas what I should be looking at or should I bite the bullet and let someone else have a try? I've never had to resort to outside help before to get one of these bikes running right, but having had some nasty moments in the wet (the surging/misfire can be so bad as to unsettle the rear on wet bends) it's become unbearable.

Any suggestions appreciated, otherwise an inconvenient cross-London trip to SW15 may be on the cards.
 
Check the HT leads.

A visual inspection, presumably - just for physical damage? I did wonder about the coil but hadn't thought of the leads themselves. I'll have a look at lunch time - thanks. But I guess the best test would be changing them and seeing whether it makes a difference.
 
A visual inspection, presumably - just for physical damage? .

measure the resistance along the length, can't remember the exact value off the top of my head thinks it's around 6.5 - or just compare the two sides.
 
Been away on holiday (Sicily - 20 degrees warmer than it is here - nasty shock coming home) so not had a chance to test the leads yet but runs worst when it's very hot or the weather is wet so leads still looking likely as the culprit. Expecting an unpleasantly mis-firing ride home tonight in the rain [we need a wet weather smilie like this:
umbrella.gif
]

Will check at the weekend if not before.
 
The two things that made the biggest difference to my surging issues were in order of significance:

1- Sparkplug change to single electrode ones. BMW gives Bosch FR6DDC, I used FR6DC. Big difference. Note that mine is a 1100.

2- Renewal of the lambda sensor, but the difference was much less.
 
I've replaced the plugs but only with stock ones (same standard NGK as was fitted when I bought it) - that made no difference. Somewhere I have a pair of used Brisk plugs and I was going to fit those to see if it made a difference (it made bugger all difference on my last 1150) but I can't find them :-(

Tomorrow I'll have the tank off to check the plug leads as Steptoe suggested and while I'm there I'll also check the resistances of the coil. It's definitely heat-related - the bike runs like a dream when cold - so if it's not ignition it could be lambda sensor, I guess (you can run with the lambda sensor disconnected, can't you?) or I was thinking fuel pump...

One step at a time, though - ignition first.
 
Plug leads measure 5.74k (right) and 6.07k (left). That's compared with 2 new ones which both measured 5.71k so the left one's going 'off' a bit. But I measured the coil too and unless the factory manual I have is way out (probably not) the coil is pretty much dead.

Primary winding about 0.7ohm compared to around 0.5ohm ideal - not too bad. Secondary winding 500kohm + (varying up to around 680k depending on how long I leave the meter on) compared with around 7.5kohm ideal. So around 70 times the resistance it should be. I even tried it with another meter and that gave a similar reading so it's not the meter at fault.

I called the dealer to see whether they had one in that I could check mine against and they don't, so it looks like Motorworks on Monday. And I hope mine keeps going for another couple of days.....
 
Tried the fuel filter? |Mine was running lik a pig with fuel starvation issues, changed the filter and its much better now.
 
Tried the fuel filter? |Mine was running lik a pig with fuel starvation issues, changed the filter and its much better now.

The fuel filter was changed around 4k miles ago (well, the dealer charged the PO for it anyway.....) so I think that's not as likely as the coil given the resistance readings. It runs fine on a wide throttle opening and at higher revs where fuel supply problems might be apparent.

Hopefully I'll be able to get a new coil by the middle of the week so I'll find out soon enough whether it really is the culprit.
 
...There is a very loud tapping (not ticking) from both throttle bodies at idle, worse from the left (TPS) side - applying light pressure to the cable cam to hold them closed does deaden this noise a bit but I can feel the pulsing through my finger when I do that.

I had exactly the same symptoms on my 02 single spark 1150GSA. The throttle bodies were so loud that's pretty much all you could hear. When trying to maintain a constant speed in any gear, at any speed, the surging was so pronounced at that it was like doing press-ups. It would disappear as soon as the throttle was opened.

The issue was fixed by replacing both throttle bodies! The guys at Southport Superbikes did the work under the AUB warrenty (I'd purchased it from Alan Jefferies - who'd sold it to me with the surging issue).

The tech at Southport described the problem as 'induction surge' and explained that the throttle bodies had worn (hence the tapping) possibly due to being incorrectly adjusted at some stage, and that the vacuum from the induction stoke caused the internals to move affecting the mixure and causing the surging. I'm no engine tech so forgive my simplified explanation.:nenau

The bike ran perfectly with the new TBs fitted - no other parts were changed. I guess that replacing your TBs will be expensive but the loud tapping could well be the issue.
 
Well don't I feel stupid......

The new coil arrived yesterday. Before fitting it I checked the resistance of the HT side and......exactly the same as the old one :confused: I fitted it at lunch time anyway but, not surprisingly, it made no difference to the way the bike ran on the way home :(

So having effectively ruled out an ignition problem (changed plugs, plug leads and coil), suspicion returns to the fuelling. This morning I had a brain-wave and checked the TPS voltage - 0.457v! I have no idea how it reached that value as I last set it to 0.385 but I knocked it back to 0.390 and reset the Motronic and it's improved things a little - better pickup after idling in traffic, slightly less surging and it feels 'cleaner' (as you'd expect if it was running rich before as a result of the TPS reading being high?) but it's nowhere near right.

I plan to reduce the TPS voltage further tonight and see what difference it makes, but the problem is that the throttle stop screws have been adjusted in the past and I no longer know what their base position is. Since the TPS adjustment relies on the throttle position being a known quantity when closed, this poses a problem for accurate setting - all it leaves is trial and error.

Then Pacific posts this.....

I had exactly the same symptoms on my 02 single spark 1150GSA. The throttle bodies were so loud that's pretty much all you could hear. When trying to maintain a constant speed in any gear, at any speed, the surging was so pronounced at that it was like doing press-ups. It would disappear as soon as the throttle was opened.

The issue was fixed by replacing both throttle bodies! The guys at Southport Superbikes did the work under the AUB warrenty (I'd purchased it from Alan Jefferies - who'd sold it to me with the surging issue).

The tech at Southport described the problem as 'induction surge' and explained that the throttle bodies had worn (hence the tapping) possibly due to being incorrectly adjusted at some stage, and that the vacuum from the induction stoke caused the internals to move affecting the mixure and causing the surging. I'm no engine tech so forgive my simplified explanation.:nenau

The bike ran perfectly with the new TBs fitted - no other parts were changed. I guess that replacing your TBs will be expensive but the loud tapping could well be the issue.

This sounds pretty much like what's happening to mine in all respects (same age bike too - very late 2002 single spark - dodgy batch of throttle bodies? Mine's done only 28k miles and throttle bodies generally last longer than that before wearing, but then mine have almost certainly been messed with) and with correct end float and valve clearances and 20W-50 oil the tapping throttle bodies are the loudest thing on mine too. Holding the butterflies shut does reduce the noise, but there's a fair amount of force involved.

If fiddling with the TPS again doesn't solve the problem I think a TB rebuild from Scrimingers is on the cards, but I may try to get hold of a second hand pair first - partly just to try them out but also so that I can keep my bike on the road while the TBs are off being rebuilt. And if a second hand pair solves the problem......the rebuild can wait.

I'd be interested to hear Steptoe's view on the TB replacement at Southport Superbikes because I doubt he's had to resort to many TB replacements?
 
OK, used zero-zero method on the throttle stop screws (they'd been screwed with anyway - what did I have to lose?) and removed and cleaned the bypass screws (a bit gunged up) then balanced at idle, adjusted cables, balanced at 2k rpm. Bike runs nicely at idle and loud tapping/knocking has gone so I assume that was either throttle stops or cable adjustment. At least something's improved.

The bike isn't surging in the normal sense - it's mis-firing, kind of 'missing' briefly and then coming back a split second later. Not at a fixed frequency, though. Worst between around 2.5k and 3k rpm but present at any engine speed in any gear up to around 60mph on a constant, light throttle. At higher speeds with a barn door like the GS light throttle isn't an option! Resistance of injectors is 16.7 ohms left, 17.1 ohms right so they're probably OK. My feeling it that it's not caused by the throttle bodies (although I'll try switching them anyway) but is to do with fuelling.

Tomorrow I'll try unplugging the lambda sensor. Anything else anyone can suggest? Could a failing HES cause this misfire? There are no other symptoms (erratic rev counter or whatever) to suggest this. I'll be swapping tanks soon so that'll mean changing the fuel filter by default, even though it was done recently.

The bike pulls hard all the way past the red line so I don't think fuel starvation is likely as surely this would manifest itself more at higher revs/wider throttle openings?
 
sproggy mate,i currently have exactly the same problem has you with my 1100gs and its doing my head in,i used the bike today and engine seems to sound noisy,its not smooth and when revved slowly miss-fires once or twice up to about 3rpm,i thought i,d cured it by fitting a techlusion but its still there.best of luck:thumb
 
It has the 'official' NGK twin-electrode plugs fitted. I've replaced them with new ones but I haven't tried changing the gap - I thought you weren't supposed to do that?

Are those the plugs you mean?

12127653771.jpg
 


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