The Boxer Engine - A Question For the Historians

[Deletedmemberjdcxxx]

No, not ready for martyrdom just yet despite my initials (JC)

I welcome everyone's opinions but your "without any frame of reference" comment is critical of new riders and doesn't reflect what I was asking in the original post.

I'm not saying that you're one of them but there does seem to be a bunch of guys on this site who treat it as their private p*ss taking club, which I don't mind if they also take the time to pass on some of there gargantuan wisdom to the rest of us mere mortals. Sadly they just take the p*ss and as my old Nan used to say "if you can't say something nice, f*ck off!"

Actually I think it was "don't say anything!"

 

[(RIP) Edvard Munch]

No, not ready for martyrdom just yet despite my initials (JC)

I welcome everyone's opinions but your "without any frame of reference" comment is critical of new riders and doesn't reflect what I was asking in the original post.

I'm not saying that you're one of them but there does seem to be a bunch of guys on this site who treat it as their private p*ss taking club, which I don't mind if they also take the time to pass on some of there gargantuan wisdom to the rest of us mere mortals. Sadly they just take the p*ss and as my old Nan used to say "if you can't say something nice, f*ck off!"

Actually I think it was "don't say anything!"

Frankly. I don't mind if you do say that JC.

In the context of your post my view is valid, however unpalatable you might find it.

I'm not making any claims to 'gargantuan wisdom', merely stating my view.

This place is as old as Methuselah in forum terms, quite an achievement believe me and I'm by no means a veteran, just chatty

Seriously. There are many folk in here, some of whom are 'pisstakers' and some who are not, who will bend over backwards to help you if they can so please, don't take offence. It's just a bit of banter in what might end up to be a rather dry technical discussion of a problem that, as I stated, doesn't really exist

 

[Engineer]

This thread must be one of the most boring ever - there must be more interesting technical issues than this old tripe

 

[Bendy toy]

Boring thread and full of misinformation. I fail to see why BMW produce an engine with a lumpy power curve that makes it rough to ride on the motorway and lumpy to use in town traffic. The max power is irrelevant though good advertising for Hilltop. I really like my bike but I cant for the life of me see why they need to put a hole in the power curve just at the point I need to use most of the time. Then there's the over-lean mixture that makes the bike stumble at low revs.

None of these things can help it pass the EU or any other regulations so why do they do it? Nobody seems to have an answer other than BMW know best. I strongly suspect its a case of corporate management that issue a set budget (time - money - resources - all of these) to develop central stuff (e.g. the ECU map) and after that everyone else has to work with it. Ive seen similar "cost saving" is other industries so why should bike manufacture be any different.

As for the VW diesels apart from them not being spark ignition the issues are exactly the same. The manufacturer emasculated an engine or maybe put minimal money into the basic versions because it allowed more sales from the more costly reworked version. The TDI 75 was a lower spec but the 90 and 110 were very similar except the 110 sold at a considerable premium to the poor old punter.

I repeat this is not about diesel v petrol. They all use electronic engine management and wont run without the motronics. The fuel ignition source is not relevant to the argument.

Wikipedia says the 'Busa made 151.5–162.6bhp at the rear wheel, so adding another 20bhp = approx 12.5% (no doubt with some very expert cylinder head work) showed the engine came out of the factory in a better state of tune than a hexhead R1200GS. These make around 80bhp and Hilltop add another 20 - (=25% more power) by simply(?) changing the ECU map.

The issue is not about mechanical tuning its about why we have to put up with a lumpy ECU map from the factory. BTW I do ride my bike - 1000 miles a month this last year in all weathers. I like it a lot but realise it could be so much better.

 

[Mistacat]

Nobody seems to have an answer = They have to run 14.7 to 1 air fuel ratio ( in truth fluctuating just above and below) for the catalytic converter to work.
I am no expert on diesels but I understand they are also set lean for emissions.
The Busa probably made its bhp at say 10,000 rpm, 09 GS 105bhp at 7000 rpm , If you look at the toque figures they are probably not a lot different if they are it will be that the Busa makes its torque at higher rpm.
BHP is a calculated figure involving Torque vs time / RPM. What would the bhp reading of of a GS be at 10000 rpm ( obviously with a change of cam etc).
Bhp is a sales figure. A good road bike needs a smooth flat torque curve.
The comments that the ride ability over stock of these bikes cannot be improved with a bit more fuel at the right places is probably right. I will continue sprinkling fairy dust on mine and enjoy the improvements.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

And I always thought different engine configurations just gave different characteristics.

Part of the appeal of riding bikes I'd have thought?

Andres

 

[ahutcheon]

I really like my bike but I cant for the life of me see why they need to put a hole in the power curve just at the point I need to use most of the time.

Maybe the people who set the standards that the bike has to meet in order to be sold are just bright enough to require measurements to be taken at the point around which the vehicle will normally be operated?

 

[Deletedmemberjdcxxx]

Frankly. I don't mind if you do say that JC.

In the context of your post my view is valid, however unpalatable you might find it.

I'm not making any claims to 'gargantuan wisdom', merely stating my view.

This place is as old as Methuselah in forum terms, quite an achievement believe me and I'm by no means a veteran, just chatty

Seriously. There are many folk in here, some of whom are 'pisstakers' and some who are not, who will bend over backwards to help you if they can so please, don't take offence. It's just a bit of banter in what might end up to be a rather dry technical discussion of a problem that, as I stated, doesn't really exist

Absolutely no offence taken, it is hard to read what someone is thinking. I did detect a hint of "come back when you grow up" in your post but I am genuinely interested in what makes my bike tic (and jerk a bit too!) I've ridden it every day since purchase and love it, but the response in first gear was a bit ferocious. The Accelerator module has definitely improved this. That's all I wanted as the remap seems a bit like jail breaking a phone and just out of personal preference this doesn't feel right. I should have added that there are some very decent guys on this site, but when I ask "will cable A attach to connector B make item C work" and get the answers "why don't you try it and see," or "look on Google," it isn't helpful or funny. A response should at least be one of these. I'm not going to run off and cry, but if there are too many troll type comments people won't bother accessing or supporting the site.

 

[mikeyboy]

i have ridden many 1200's and also own one myself,i cannot say that the performance of any of them would make me feel the need to have a remap,the flat spot is noticable but not what i would consider intrusive.
i havent ridden your bike,but if it is as bad as you are saying i would think more seriously at getting the basics checked before shelling out on "performance enhancing" mods.
unless you have had the bike from new and have serviced it yourself,you know absolutely nothing about what may or may not have been done to it!!
the valve clearances and rocker end float may have been set incorrectly or more likely with the engine warm.
if the plugs have been changed one of the gaps may not have been set,or it could have a cracked insulator if one has been dropped.duff coils could also be an issue
the throttle bodies may never have been balanced,it may have an air leak,the list goes on and on.
there is absolutely no point in having it remapped until you know for certain that runs as it should.

 

[Deletedmemberjdcxxx]

Sounds like a plan, think I'd better book it in with you Mike.

 

[Bendy toy]

Maybe the people who set the standards that the bike has to meet in order to be sold are just bright enough to require measurements to be taken at the point around which the vehicle will normally be operated?

Dream on.