Throttle body balance - zero=zero etc...
- Thread starter MattW
- Start date
First advice - immediately BIN the CO-pot without looking back! 
I tried this route and it never was smooth and created horrible dead spot/"surge" on the transition zone between 3000-3500rpm no matter how you tune it, normal, lean or rich. Plus an excessive fuel consumption on any setting.
Since you have all the zero-zeros, valves, calibrations done just fit a proper Lambda (O2-) sensor and set the CCP pin settings correct, restart Motronic (then the engine understands that there's actually a Lambda sensor to "go-to" for real live feedback of the mixture) and you have a sorted smooth engine for years to come.
If you don't have a lambda sensor hole in your aftermarket exhaust - any welder's workshop can create one for the sensor thread and angle you specify (just look where and how they normally have it positioned and have it made for your exhaust).
Yes, both the co-pot and lambda both only control the slow-speed "closed-loop" circuit, meaning they control the mixture up to 3000-3500rpm or thereabouts, after this the engine goes to "open-loop" mode meaning it doesn't matter anymore since there's enough air and fuel being fed for higher-rpms where the engine has enough rotational intertia not to notice any additional small surges or uneven fuelling etc. BUT it's the sensitive-to-smoothness low rpm and most of all: the open-to-closed loop transition zone where you sit most of the time on normal riding/cruising. So if your CO/Lambda settings are off, then you have a horribly behaving bike. Although you gain some few horsepower it's ditto for those CCP-removal mods. The latter tends to create particulary noticable "black hole" on around 3K rpm.
A proper fresh lambda-sensor equipped (and correct CCP-set) engine provides the smoothest R11XX engine, imho at least. Plus it's the most fuel-efficent engine by far.
I tried this route and it never was smooth and created horrible dead spot/"surge" on the transition zone between 3000-3500rpm no matter how you tune it, normal, lean or rich. Plus an excessive fuel consumption on any setting.
Since you have all the zero-zeros, valves, calibrations done just fit a proper Lambda (O2-) sensor and set the CCP pin settings correct, restart Motronic (then the engine understands that there's actually a Lambda sensor to "go-to" for real live feedback of the mixture) and you have a sorted smooth engine for years to come.
If you don't have a lambda sensor hole in your aftermarket exhaust - any welder's workshop can create one for the sensor thread and angle you specify (just look where and how they normally have it positioned and have it made for your exhaust).
Yes, both the co-pot and lambda both only control the slow-speed "closed-loop" circuit, meaning they control the mixture up to 3000-3500rpm or thereabouts, after this the engine goes to "open-loop" mode meaning it doesn't matter anymore since there's enough air and fuel being fed for higher-rpms where the engine has enough rotational intertia not to notice any additional small surges or uneven fuelling etc. BUT it's the sensitive-to-smoothness low rpm and most of all: the open-to-closed loop transition zone where you sit most of the time on normal riding/cruising. So if your CO/Lambda settings are off, then you have a horribly behaving bike. Although you gain some few horsepower it's ditto for those CCP-removal mods. The latter tends to create particulary noticable "black hole" on around 3K rpm.
A proper fresh lambda-sensor equipped (and correct CCP-set) engine provides the smoothest R11XX engine, imho at least. Plus it's the most fuel-efficent engine by far.
Ok.
I've not had any joy thus far in finding a local(ish) 'expert' who can set up my throttle bodies / CO pot. I know if I travel further afield, I could certainly find someone and it remains an option for the future.
So, I spent a couple of hours yesterday morning having (yet another
) go myself. Having already had the TB's off, I started with cleaned out airways etc and all the cables backed off. Having got it running reasonably, I took it for a quick spin to warm it up properly and balanced it up starting with the air screws a couple of turns out. I also used the technique that Smug and Kaister recommended to set the CO pot for maximum rpm and smoothness at idle. This took some tweaking and there are a good couple of turns of the pot around the 'sweet spot' where adjustment seems to have no real effect on the running. I left adjustment at the richer end of this sweet spot - at least I think I did - anticlockwise (or screw 'out') for rich?
Wary of the engine heating up too much and affecting the CO, I kept flirting it round the block to settle the temperature and 'feel' the results of my adjustments.
The upshot is that it now runs much smoother at idle and is nice and smooth on the cables up to about 4500 rpm where a slight buzz starts to creep in (this I think is normal for single cable 1100's and no problem as normal cruising revs are smooth). I've ended up with it idling at a gnats over 1000 rpm (probably 1050 or so - no digital tacho yet) with the air screws about half a turn out from closed and the TPS at 0.37 volts.
Professional help and perhaps even a lambda probe conversion remain an option for the future but I'm going to try and get a local MOT station to check the idle CO and check the mpg over a tank of fuel. If the results are ok, I'm going to leave it at that and go on holiday on it
Thanks for all the help and advice.
Cheers
Matt
I've not had any joy thus far in finding a local(ish) 'expert' who can set up my throttle bodies / CO pot. I know if I travel further afield, I could certainly find someone and it remains an option for the future.
So, I spent a couple of hours yesterday morning having (yet another
) go myself. Having already had the TB's off, I started with cleaned out airways etc and all the cables backed off. Having got it running reasonably, I took it for a quick spin to warm it up properly and balanced it up starting with the air screws a couple of turns out. I also used the technique that Smug and Kaister recommended to set the CO pot for maximum rpm and smoothness at idle. This took some tweaking and there are a good couple of turns of the pot around the 'sweet spot' where adjustment seems to have no real effect on the running. I left adjustment at the richer end of this sweet spot - at least I think I did - anticlockwise (or screw 'out') for rich?Wary of the engine heating up too much and affecting the CO, I kept flirting it round the block to settle the temperature and 'feel' the results of my adjustments.
The upshot is that it now runs much smoother at idle and is nice and smooth on the cables up to about 4500 rpm where a slight buzz starts to creep in (this I think is normal for single cable 1100's and no problem as normal cruising revs are smooth). I've ended up with it idling at a gnats over 1000 rpm (probably 1050 or so - no digital tacho yet) with the air screws about half a turn out from closed and the TPS at 0.37 volts.
Professional help and perhaps even a lambda probe conversion remain an option for the future but I'm going to try and get a local MOT station to check the idle CO and check the mpg over a tank of fuel. If the results are ok, I'm going to leave it at that and go on holiday on it
Thanks for all the help and advice.
Cheers
Matt
Lambda is the easiest mod you can do at home compared to the hassle with the CO-pot or CCP-settings experiments that require a nuclear physicist knowledge combined with a sixth sense to get it running near-right or allmost, and still with ifs and buts.
Just install the lambda sensor, put the right wires into CCP (or buy the pink plug) and yer done. The engine automatically sorts itself out by getting live mixture feedback from the exhaust.
I did Lambda installation in 15 minutes FFS, and everything was sorted on the bike with "no ifs or buts", while I spent days messing with the CO-pot/CCP and never could get it even remotely as smooth and economical.
Margus
The lambda conversion wouldn't be quite as easy for me as my exhaust doesn't have the necessary tapping. So I'd have to remove / get it welded etc. But I take your point and will definitely consider it if my current setup doesn't work out.
Yeti
Registered user
The irony of this statement is that over here in the US, we're all getting rid of our Lambda sensors and/or trying the CO pot to get our bikes to run smoothly. Or doing other things.
Here at least, the Lambda sensor does not smooth out the engine at all. Must be the water.
'Merica is a different world indeed.
There people won't even start to ride a brand new bike until it's fully gastrized with ECU-tuning chips and changed timing making the engine to run like an ill tractor on low-rpms (there it's defined as "running strong", the word "smooth" is not fully understood by a motorcyclist nor it is represented in any of the dictionaries for this particular field) with fuel literally dripping out of the exaust, changed caster angles, smaller-thicker wheels, lowered suspension, racing exhausts, zillion titanium and carbon fibre or just shiny chromed bits - everything motivated by "because I can". Not only it handles and runs horrible, but also looks ugly - but that's just part of the culture and it's the difference that makes the world to go around.
It's driven by a variable resistor attached to a float arm, why would it stop working because you changed over to using carbs ?
It's driven by a variable resistor attached to a float arm, why would it stop working because you changed over to using carbs ?
Because the RID fuel level display is fed from the motronic, not directly from the in-tank float arm.
However, my comment above was tongue in cheek. Gary has worked out how to do this via a circuit he developed (not sure whether its analogue or via a micro controller). I've asked a couple of times in his threads whether he'd share how he did it. He's never replied which I assume means he's keeping it to himself
link to the conversion i did on my 1100 ...A lot of work to do properly but well worth it
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263923
Oil temp gauge was a lot of work to figure out and i can retro fit the controller i made for others but it needs to be adapted to suit the bike
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263923
Oil temp gauge was a lot of work to figure out and i can retro fit the controller i made for others but it needs to be adapted to suit the bike
Ok.
I've not had any joy thus far in finding a local(ish) 'expert' who can set up my throttle bodies / CO pot. I know if I travel further afield, I could certainly find someone and it remains an option for the future.
So, I spent a couple of hours yesterday morning having (yet another
Wary of the engine heating up too much and affecting the CO, I kept flirting it round the block to settle the temperature and 'feel' the results of my adjustments.
The upshot is that it now runs much smoother at idle and is nice and smooth on the cables up to about 4500 rpm where a slight buzz starts to creep in (this I think is normal for single cable 1100's and no problem as normal cruising revs are smooth). I've ended up with it idling at a gnats over 1000 rpm (probably 1050 or so - no digital tacho yet) with the air screws about half a turn out from closed and the TPS at 0.37 volts.
Well, finally got my long suffering local MOT station to check the CO for me after a longish ride. With everything left as it was after my final TB balance and 'by feel' CO pot setting (as above), the brass air screws ended up about 1/2 a turn out on each side. It has a nice smooth tickover (best it's ever been) at about 1050 rpm and I averaged 50mpg over a tank of fuel on a two up trip with panniers to and from Hawes a couple of weeks ago (mixture of twisties and motorway).
However at the MOT station today the CO was reading about 4.5% at tickover. Any attempt to lean it out towards 2% (clockwise on the pot screw) dropped the tickover speed and it became appreciably rougher. So I set it back to where it was.
I'm inclined to leave it where it is but will a CO of around 4.5% damage anything?
thanks
Matt
Speckled Jim
Registered user
Yes, I did my 1100 last year and it made a very positive difference to the smooth running, surge reduction, etc. The only drawback is I'm getting slightly less mpg, but overall the improvement in running is well worth it.
I didn't know there were bad experiences with the zero-zero method, it made sense to me. I recently rechecked the settings and everything was still bang on.
Ah, just read post #38 - 'poor technique and lack of understanding' rather than something wrong with the procedure itself. Numbskulls shouldn't be allowed near toolboxes
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