To ABS or not to ABS, that is the question

[SPUNKY]

Keep em coming, you are doing a good job of making me part with my hard earned dosh.


Also: How easy is it to change the pads without affecting the abs (sensor type thingy). Considering I may not be the best mechanic in the world and a large flat bladed screw driver usually comes into play.

 

[richie]

Keep em coming, you are doing a good job of making me part with my hard earned dosh.


Also: How easy is it to change the pads without affecting the abs (sensor type thingy). Considering I may not be the best mechanic in the world and a large flat bladed screw driver usually comes into play.

Never had a problemchanging the pads, I believe the servo makes it more difficult rather than the abs sensor...

I could be wrong though

 

[Mouse]

I've changed the pads on my servo/ABS 1200. You just have to be careful pushing the pistons back into the caliper, that's what I was told by the mechanic at my dealer and it seems to be correct

If you keep your brakes clean, you shouldn't need to force the pistons anyway

 

[GSmonkey]

The brakes on the 12 are bloody fantasic - with servo's and ABS. The ABS has kicked in proper once and had numerous 'nuisance' initiations over bumps and the like - but its well worth it for the 'once'.

Its the first time I've had full confidence braking in the wet / snow and thats a good thing for my riding enjoyment. I've found that I've compensated for having ABS i.e. higher wet weather speeds which is a good thing.

I'd say ABS probably helps on the depreciation stakes....they are more desirable to the garage come trade in.

I wouldn't buy a non-ABS GS because I find the front vague in terms of feedback (relative to a sportsbike) and would not be happy braking hard without a degree of feedback.

Just my opionion - personally I think the risk reduction due the braking system, servo's and all, outweighs any increased risk due to mechanical favour. Would I have a non-servo'd ABS which had the same feel as the current system - YES.

 

[Russ]

ABS - yes, a must have IMHO. My last 2 VFRs had ABS, and i would only buy a bike fitted with ABS.

I'm not quite sure i understand the mentality of those against ABS on bikes, and why it isn't at least optional on all models, the only argument heard against ABS is the usual (penis defining) it robs me of control, i can outbrake abs etc...
All well and good, but usually comes from a) Power rangers and b) those who think they are Valentino Rossi (which kinda encompases a) somewhat)

However put these Valentino Rossi likes onto an uneven surfaced road, in the wet, with fading light, with a streaming cold and then see how good their reactions are to unexpected event.

Racetracks are great environments, surface is nearly always unblemished, there is no oncoming traffic no unexpected hazards to deal with, thus no need for ABS...although most race cars have ABS or similar electronic aids (amongst other goodies).

There are a very small minority of very capable motorcyclists who can outbrake abs and control a bike at its limits in any conditions, these individuals are highly skilled, however for the rest of us mere mortals (99.9999% of us) may as well try and stack the odds in our favour.

As for changing pads, its very easy, just push the pistons back in SLOWLY. To have buggered up the ABS pump someone must have really rammed those pistons back bloody hard...apply mechanical sympathy not ineptitude and you will have no problem.

ABS is definetly favoured at trade-in, you will get a better trade in/private sale figure to the tune of 50-75% of the original cost of the ABS. Safety sells, ask Renault.

 

[J-P]

We have both an 1100GS without ABS and a 1150GS with ABS without servo brakes. I`m sure both my wife and I, avid riders of the unpaved roads, wouldn`t choose ABS but since both bikes were second hand, there wasn`t really any choise.

Although the ABS of the 2001 R1150GS is great, it has some side effects which concern us. If you only apply the rear brake or if you shift down deliberately to descelerate in unpaved territory the ABS will kick in, suddenly changing a pretty uneventfull corner into a drama if you`re unlucky. It`s a big mistake by BMW: I only want ABS if needed on the front wheel, not on the rear one.

Yes, you can turn ABS off on the GS-models but what`s the point of shutting it off and paying 800 pounds or so to even have it installed on the bike. Let`s put it this way: if your ABS has to kick in you`ve done something wrong. No, don`t point your finger at the blue haired lady that didn`t gave way and made you brake, point the finger at yourself for expecting that she saw that you were coming.

As an instructor I acknowledge and appreciate ABS for what it is: it often prevents people who are not very well trained in braking to kill themselves. When I perform some demonstrations for pupils I`ll also show them the difference between a controlled hard braking manouvre without ABS and a hard ABS "give it everything you got"braking manouvre and with a speed of 30 mls the point where you come to a standstill is about 6 feet earlier without than with ABS (tested on an STX1300 which has a superior ABS imho). For untrained motorcyclists that would be the difference between lying down and standing up, with ABS. For trained riders it means standing in front of a car and colliding with the car...

I much rather prefer people training themselves to become equally or better skilled. YMMV,IMHO.

Some reactions on what other people said previously:

GSMonkey:

I've found that I've compensated for having ABS i.e. higher wet weather speeds which is a good thing.

I don`t agree. It means your risk perception has changed, you think it is safer now so you go faster. Why not riding the same, smart speed but more comforteably because of your ABS? That would reassure me a lot more...

Russ:

I'm not quite sure i understand the mentality of those against ABS on bikes, and why it isn't at least optional on all models, the only argument heard against ABS is the usual (penis defining) it robs me of control, i can outbrake abs etc... All well and good, but usually comes from a) Power rangers and b) those who think they are Valentino Rossi (which kinda encompases a) somewhat)

A bit short sighted I feel. I don`t think I belong to either group. I do feel howerver that I`ve learned a lot from my mistakes (of which I have made plenty) and I try to get better every time and all the time. In the case of ABS when downshifting hard to use the brake compression of the engine or when applying rear brake to slide thorugh a corner it does rob me of control. As for the outbraking bit, it is possible to outbrake ABS but I`m sure even skilled riders won`t be able to outbrake ABS in every circumstance, so it does have its benefits. Afterall, ABS is mostly applied when braking unexpectedly and 99,999% doesn`t know how he/she reacts when being put in a situation like that.

Racetracks are great environments, surface is nearly always unblemished, there is no oncoming traffic no unexpected hazards to deal with, thus no need for ABS...

Main dissadvantage of ABS is the fact that it kicks in when you don`t want it as a performance rider. Look at supermotardracing, braking on the engine and revving it up through the corner, ABS would surely prevent that.

 

[Russ]

Russ:

A bit short sighted I feel. I don`t think I belong to either group. I do feel howerver that I`ve learned a lot from my mistakes (of which I have made plenty) and I try to get better every time and all the time. In the case of ABS when downshifting hard to use the brake compression of the engine or when applying rear brake to slide thorugh a corner it does rob me of control. As for the outbraking bit, it is possible to outbrake ABS but I`m sure even skilled riders won`t be able to outbrake ABS in every circumstance, so it does have its benefits. Afterall, ABS is mostly applied when braking unexpectedly and 99,999% doesn`t know how he/she reacts when being put in a situation like that.

The devil is in the detail, if you read carefully i used the word usually and later on refined the point by stating that a very small minority are suitably skilled.

What i'm trying to ascertain is why anyone would 'need' to slide through a corner, surely a rotating wheel is better than a stopped wheel, a rotating wheel provides stabilising gyroscopic forces, and stopped wheel does not, ergo a locked wheel is 'disadvantageous'

If you can lock a rear wheel downshifting through engine braking then that is just sloppy use of controls and shows a lack of mechanical sympathy.

Maybe i have missed something here, but ABS only works with the brakes applied, so a pure engine braking only wheel lock up would not be correct by ABS...a traction control system would perform this function.

Main dissadvantage of ABS is the fact that it kicks in when you don`t want it as a performance rider. Look at supermotardracing, braking on the engine and revving it up through the corner, ABS would surely prevent that.

Where would anyone apply brakes during this manouvere? excuse my ignorance

 

[Kropotkin]

Maybe i have missed something here, but ABS only works with the brakes applied, so a pure engine braking only wheel lock up would not be correct by ABS...a traction control system would perform this function.

Although I am a big fan of ABS, BMW's version (and particularly the version on older 1150's, like J-P's wife's bike) has a couple of big disadvantages:

- one of the parameters it uses is speed difference between the front and rear wheel. This is a real pain, because it means that if you lock the rear wheel, the ABS activates not just on the rear wheel (like you want) but also on the FRONT wheel, which means you temporarily lose braking force. And soil yourself. This is a pretty bad idea, in my opinion, particularly in combination with linked brakes, as the rear is quite easy to lock, for example, by braking very hard downhill.

- the pulse speed is pretty coarse. Which means it activates very roughly. Funnily enough, I had a Scarver as a loaner, and the ABS on that was MUCH better, much smoother (I make a point of practicing very hard braking on bikes, and testing the ABS).

David

 

[Russ]

Although I am a big fan of ABS, BMW's version (and particularly the version on older 1150's, like J-P's wife's bike) has a couple of big disadvantages:

- one of the parameters it uses is speed difference between the front and rear wheel. This is a real pain, because it means that if you lock the rear wheel, the ABS activates not just on the rear wheel (like you want) but also on the FRONT wheel, which means you temporarily lose braking force. And soil yourself. This is a pretty bad idea, in my opinion, particularly in combination with linked brakes, as the rear is quite easy to lock, for example, by braking very hard downhill.

- the pulse speed is pretty coarse. Which means it activates very roughly. Funnily enough, I had a Scarver as a loaner, and the ABS on that was MUCH better, much smoother (I make a point of practicing very hard braking on bikes, and testing the ABS).

David

Maybe they have changed it on the 12 then?

I have spun up the rear and the brakes have never kicked in, and conversely i have locked up the rear and only the ABS has functioned only on the rear brake. I even locked the rear on a demo 1150 (2000 model year i think) and no ABS issues there either.

My VFR never did this either (apples and oranges i agree)

WHat you are describing seems to be more like a crude traction control system

 

[Kropotkin]

They didn't change the system on the 12 (other than some minor refinements, mostly to the servos).

Spinning up the rear won't make a difference. The system only works when braking, if a large speed differential suddenly appears between the wheels.

It takes a certain set of circumstances to reproduce the effect of the rear wheel locking up and releasing the front, but it can be done. Find a steep hill, take the bike up to speed, and brake very hard, more with the rear than the front brake. Under those conditions, it is difficult to lock the front up (as almost 100% of the bike's weight is on the front wheel), yet the ABS will release on the FRONT wheel. BMW refers to this as "anti-stoppie" protection, and it is aimed at preventing people from crashing by braking so hard that the bike flips over. Which would hurt, having a 260 kg bike flip on top of you...

And your VFR will never have done it, because the Honda system does not have a similar system, and is superior to BM's. (It is the only thing that's better though ...)

 

[Russ]

I must admit a certain scepticism.

The GS is quite easy to stoppie, for example.

Are there any official documents to confirm this 'anti-stoppie' function.

I left a good 50yard darkie by stamping on the rear brake of the demo bike, and at no point did the front ABS kick in.

If it does kick in becuase the front brake is actuated during the manouvere described above, then i am inclined to agree this is a stupid function, but my scepticism remains intact

 

[Kropotkin]

I left a good 50yard darkie by stamping on the rear brake of the demo bike, and at no point did the front ABS kick in.

You should not be able to leave a darkie when the ABS is enabled! The ABS (on the rear) should cut in to prevent this! Sounds like the ABS did not complete its start-up cycle before you started off...

I'll see if I can find some official documentation on this behaviour. To start with, I suggest you pop on over to advrider.com and search for anti-stoppie.

 

[Fanum]

Bill, sorry m8 but thats bollix... The ABS might of helped (almost certainly) but your a strong lad, and believe me without the servo and the ABS you still would have locked the bike up.

You're right I suppose Richie.....the servo part of the equation wasn't what saved our skins...it was the Evo linked part.......

I grabbed a masive handfull of front lever.....I went for the rear pedal but there was a bumping of rider/pilllion feet and the whole braking event had to happen on the lever........

On any other bike, it'd have locked up and dumped us, or we'd have gone over the bars.....the linked brakes spit it up though and with the telelever doing its thing and no dipping, the bike just pulled up perfectly.

So yeah fair enough, the Servos themselves only helped a lot rather than being an essential part (possibly..not entirely convince with all that weight on the bike) but the combination of ABS, Servo and linking system did the job.

SO i stand by my initial conclusion....I'd buy the same agaion.

 

[GSmonkey]

There is a typo in what I said previously. I now ride faster in the wet which is NOT a good thing.

I agree J-P, it is risk compensation which was my point. A natural human reaction I think. Having difficulty controlling it

As for people outbraking ABS......tonight I rode home knackered though driving snow in the dark with high winds, after 11hrs in the office.....I wasn't gonna outbrake any ABS system. This is good technology to have on bikes.

 

[J-P]

The devil is in the detail, if you read carefully i used the word usually and later on refined the point by stating that a very small minority are suitably skilled.

I`m sorry, I might `ve missed that bit, I`m not a native english speaker you know...

What i'm trying to ascertain is why anyone would 'need' to slide through a corner, surely a rotating wheel is better than a stopped wheel, a rotating wheel provides stabilising gyroscopic forces, and stopped wheel does not, ergo a locked wheel is 'disadvantageous'

No it isn`t. It is if you want to brake the conventional way but I like to use a locking rear wheel to slide through a corner or to change a direction in case of preventing a collision with something, in UNPAVED situations. I`m aware of the gyroscopic forces, my front wheel rotates sufficiently

If you can lock a rear wheel downshifting through engine braking then that is just sloppy use of controls and shows a lack of mechanical sympathy.

Whatever... did I mention the unpaved bit?

Maybe i have missed something here, but ABS only works with the brakes applied, so a pure engine braking only wheel lock up would not be correct by ABS...a traction control system would perform this function.

I think you have missed something, what Kropotkin said

Where would anyone apply brakes during this manouvere? excuse my ignorance

You ask some english Sm-racer, his english will be much more comprehensible than mine

 

[Russ]

OK J-P all is forgiven, your native tounge is "freaky-deaky dutch" (Austin Powers:Goldmember)

You never mentioned 'un-paved' before, and BMW recognise the fact that ABS is no good 'off-road' and have kindly supplied a nice little button marked 'ABS' which if you press it, deactivates the ABS

 

[J-P]

OK J-P all is forgiven, your native tounge is "freaky-deaky dutch" (Austin Powers:Goldmember)

You never mentioned 'un-paved' before, and BMW recognise the fact that ABS is no good 'off-road' and have kindly supplied a nice little button marked 'ABS' which if you press it, deactivates the ABS

Actually, I did mention Un-paved before:

Although the ABS of the 2001 R1150GS is great, it has some side effects which concern us. If you only apply the rear brake or if you shift down deliberately to descelerate in unpaved territory the ABS will kick in, suddenly changing a pretty uneventfull corner into a drama if you`re unlucky. It`s a big mistake by BMW: I only want ABS if needed on the front wheel, not on the rear one.

My point indeed is"what`s the point of buying an 800 pound ABS-system if you have to turn it off"

 

[Jack]

Mate Go for it,

the setup has saved my arse three times now and I have only had the bike a fortnight it takes no time at all to get used to it.

nothing more scarry than a bloody skippy jumping out at you whilst doing 120ks in the dark.


ABS bloody marvelous

Jack

 

[SPUNKY]

Many thanks for your contibutions, sorry to start WWIII .
But as I see it so far £800 on brakes is alot cheaper than T-boning something (even if it is skippy). I have a few years riding under my belt, but that counts for diddly squat as I find that awareness is the most valuable tool for avoiding problems and it always buggers off when you most need it. And I certainly wouldn't depend on my skills for getting out of the clag.........ABS it is then.


Thanks all.

 

[rdover]

I bought my Y2k 1150GS last August and have done 6,000 winter miles on it. In that time I have not had to use the ABS in anger, however it has cut in frequently when not needed or wanted. This may sound a little odd so I'll explain with an example or 2.

The ABS on earlier bikes (I've not tried later models, yet) is rather coarse so whn I am braking lightly over loose or slippy surface like wet white lines the brakes 'let go'. This is rather unnerving and resulted in my braking distance in a filtering situation increasing by about 3 feet. Luckily I had 4' of space. I was only donig about 10mph so no real danger.

After that experience I decided to test both my reactions and the ABS. I went to a local bit of road that has been isolated by a new road. This stretch of tarmac is almost 0.5 miles long and can only be accessed by riding through a gravel mound, so no risk from other traffic. I marked out a point and then accelerated up to 30mph and did an emergency stop using ABS and marked my resting position. I then switched off the ABS and did the same thing and found I had stopped some 6' sooner. I did not practice, nor did I lock up the front wheel. I went back when cold and slippy and did the same thing and found that my stopping distance without ABS was 2' less.

I do not like the ABS system on my bike mainly due to the coarse nature and the potential unsettling effect on handling if I were to use it when banked over, however as it is there I am happy to use it. If it broke I would not fix it.

As for having it on a new bike, I would have to see what it felt like. As for Servo Assist and Linked brakes, I have tried them on a new LT I had as a courtesy bike and I HATED them. The LT handles like a barge anyway and when feathering the back brakes to settle the bike into a corner the front brakes came on! If the only choice was ABS/Servo/linked or not then I would put risk not having ABS to avoid the rest.