bingbong
Registered user
Thanks again, ABS it is then. Sorted...........
to ABS or not to ABS?
- Thread starter bingbong
- Start date
ABS or non ABS
I thought long and hard about this myself and have gone for a non ABS version
True the resale value may be less if/when we decide to part company but at £800 I can live with that. What I couldn't live with is the out of warranty failure of the ABS system. Them modulators ain't cheap
Alpine White & Red
Why no low seat option ???
I thought long and hard about this myself and have gone for a non ABS version
True the resale value may be less if/when we decide to part company but at £800 I can live with that. What I couldn't live with is the out of warranty failure of the ABS system. Them modulators ain't cheap
Alpine White & Red
Why no low seat option ???
I've got ABS on mine, there was no choice when I bought it. Next time I'd go for non-ABS , not to save money but because I don't like the way the ABS lets the brakes off as it seems to do so too early. Try an e-stop and see what I mean, well before the back wheel lifts off the deck the brakes release, this means in dry conditions I could stop quicker without it. In wet and slippery conditions I probably couldn't but then I've never had the ABS trigger without my deliberately provoking it. The rear ABS is an absolute joke, a complete waste of time and so slow to activate-release- reactivate and it locks the wheel before releasing it. I'm not at all convinced that the ABS is good for safety and I wouldn't trust it to brake when banked over anyway and a wheel lock-up in a straight line is not really a problem.
Do non ABS bikes still have the front/rear brakes linked (I know there is no servo but they could still be linked).?
Do non ABS bikes still have the front/rear brakes linked (I know there is no servo but they could still be linked).?
JayGee said:
They are not linked.
I prefer the non-ABS version because it doesn't have those pointless servos.
bingbong said:I was just thinking about resale value and sale ability. But then its something else to go wrong init........
I have an 1150 with servo/ABS and would not buy another 'bike with this arrangment ( contraption ?).......concerns over mechanical malfunction, far outweighing those for needing / not needing ABS.
SO...........buy non ABS, look after it, keep it a couple of years and then I will buy it off you.
I'm all heart..........
JimVonBaden
Guest
I am always amazed at how afraid people are of technology.
The servo ABS has no higher rate of failure than most other bikes, and there is no reason to suspect it will either, except fear mongers and the timid.
I am personally not that good a rider that I wont take every advantage I can get as safe a bike as I can. The ABS was a big reason for buying the bike, and servos make the ABS nearly seamless compared to the old non-servo system.
If the idea of servo failure scares you, sell the bike before the warranty runs out, or plan on spending a few hundred to convert it to non ABS if you need to.
Nonetheless, it was a big selling point for me. Maybe the cost of a V-strom over there is closer, but had it not been for ABS and the Paralever/telelever suspension, I wouldn't have paid nearly double for the bike versus any number of Japanese bikes.
Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
Jim
The servo ABS has no higher rate of failure than most other bikes, and there is no reason to suspect it will either, except fear mongers and the timid.
I am personally not that good a rider that I wont take every advantage I can get as safe a bike as I can. The ABS was a big reason for buying the bike, and servos make the ABS nearly seamless compared to the old non-servo system.
If the idea of servo failure scares you, sell the bike before the warranty runs out, or plan on spending a few hundred to convert it to non ABS if you need to.
Nonetheless, it was a big selling point for me. Maybe the cost of a V-strom over there is closer, but had it not been for ABS and the Paralever/telelever suspension, I wouldn't have paid nearly double for the bike versus any number of Japanese bikes.
Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
Jim
I've had ABS 2 on a 1100GS and a 1100RT and ABS Evo with and without servo's on 1150 GS's, plus non ABS on an early 2000 1150GS.
Mixed feelings, liked the (non servo) ABS bikes with ABS 2 and ABS Evo - a worthwile accessory/safety feature, however hated servo ABS Evo........on a 1150GS, no braking feeling or feedback and over complicated.
Now gone for a 2005 Adventure (heaviest of all GS's !!) without ABS, but with standard Evo calipers and braided hoses.
Best brakes by far in terms of feedback and braking ability...they are superb!!
Had a few rear wheel and 2 front wheel slides on damp roads, but managed to stay upright
Had 2 scary moments with Servo ABS (used in anger & caused by SMIDSY's) where the ABS 'let go' and increased braking distance and shot the bike forward into the offending car's path (No, I didn't hit them and the Servo's didn't fail)
I'm waiting to see if the reports of BMW's dropping servo assistance in 2006/2007 is true, before I'd ever buy another ABS equipped new BMW bike.(See new R1200S reports)
Besides potential servo malfunction, the braking action and feedback is simply diabolical.
Resale............makes no difference, if you paid £800 extra new for ABS, you'd be lucky to get another £400 over a similar age/condition/mileage non ABS GS from a BMW dealer, even less from a non BMW Jap dealer
Non ABS GS's..........I've got an Adv and a Dakar without ABS and wouldn't hesitate to have the same combination again
Mixed feelings, liked the (non servo) ABS bikes with ABS 2 and ABS Evo - a worthwile accessory/safety feature, however hated servo ABS Evo........on a 1150GS, no braking feeling or feedback and over complicated.
Now gone for a 2005 Adventure (heaviest of all GS's !!) without ABS, but with standard Evo calipers and braided hoses.
Best brakes by far in terms of feedback and braking ability...they are superb!!
Had a few rear wheel and 2 front wheel slides on damp roads, but managed to stay upright
Had 2 scary moments with Servo ABS (used in anger & caused by SMIDSY's) where the ABS 'let go' and increased braking distance and shot the bike forward into the offending car's path (No, I didn't hit them and the Servo's didn't fail)
I'm waiting to see if the reports of BMW's dropping servo assistance in 2006/2007 is true, before I'd ever buy another ABS equipped new BMW bike.(See new R1200S reports)
Besides potential servo malfunction, the braking action and feedback is simply diabolical.
Resale............makes no difference, if you paid £800 extra new for ABS, you'd be lucky to get another £400 over a similar age/condition/mileage non ABS GS from a BMW dealer, even less from a non BMW Jap dealer
Non ABS GS's..........I've got an Adv and a Dakar without ABS and wouldn't hesitate to have the same combination again
JimVonBaden said:If the idea of servo failure scares you, sell the bike before the warranty runs out, or plan on spending a few hundred to convert it to non ABS if you need to.
Jim
More like a couple of thousand, to convert a Servo ABS bike to non ABS
Mmmmmmm
My 1150GS, my F650GS Dakar, then my 1150 GS-A were all ordered without ABS, and the 1200GS-A when it comes wont be fitted with it either.
All sorts of reasons and arguments, best discussed over a pint, but in over forty years of riding, last ten years done 250,000 miles on the four valve boxers, track days, Nürburgring courses (where they have you locking the front wheel up at thirty miles an hour... in the wet) I'm still not sold on ABS.
Resale value never been a problem. Weight saving... get into a slide (cornering) and recover it... extra weight of the ABS might just be enough to keep the slide going.. dunno, but a possibility to think about.
As for riding an ABS equipped bike and relying on it in everyday riding
if ever there was a recipe for disaster... 
None ABS for me every time!
My 1150GS, my F650GS Dakar, then my 1150 GS-A were all ordered without ABS, and the 1200GS-A when it comes wont be fitted with it either.
All sorts of reasons and arguments, best discussed over a pint, but in over forty years of riding, last ten years done 250,000 miles on the four valve boxers, track days, Nürburgring courses (where they have you locking the front wheel up at thirty miles an hour... in the wet) I'm still not sold on ABS.
Resale value never been a problem. Weight saving... get into a slide (cornering) and recover it... extra weight of the ABS might just be enough to keep the slide going.. dunno, but a possibility to think about.
As for riding an ABS equipped bike and relying on it in everyday riding
if ever there was a recipe for disaster... None ABS for me every time!
All comes down to personal risk analysis.
Just like insurance, you don't want to have to pay for it until you need it. If I was a riding god I'd not bother with it either, but then I'm not which is why I find it nice for it to be there if I ever needed it.
Reminds me of the saying:
A superior pilot is one that uses their superior knowledge, to keep them out of situations that would require the use of their superior skill.
Just like insurance, you don't want to have to pay for it until you need it. If I was a riding god I'd not bother with it either, but then I'm not which is why I find it nice for it to be there if I ever needed it.
Reminds me of the saying:
A superior pilot is one that uses their superior knowledge, to keep them out of situations that would require the use of their superior skill.
Can I assume that what you mean by the above is that riding in such a way that reliance on ABS to avoid falling off is a "recipe for disaster" (as opposed to relying on an ABS equipped bike everyday as a means of transport)?Micky said:As for riding an ABS equipped bike and relying on it in everyday riding
None ABS for me every time!
MikeP said:Can I assume that what you mean by the above is that riding in such a way that reliance on ABS to avoid falling off is a "recipe for disaster" (as opposed to relying on an ABS equipped bike everyday as a means of transport)?
Knowing Micky well, the former statement about relying/putting faith on ABS as a means of not crashing, is what he meant
Just out interest, how many of the anti / unconvinced ABS brigade have it on their cars? And would they disable it?
John Armstrong said:
Yep, have ABS on my Honda Accord 2.2CDTi and my Toyota Hiace GS D4D Van, but there is no choice with them to have or have not OR disable.
However the big difference with cars etc is the system isn't solely reliant on electrical circuits to operate it and works from vacuum pressure additionally, I believe...........but stand corrected.
John Armstrong said:
ask 'em how many times it's gone wrong on their cars
Yeh, but no butJohn Armstrong said:
cars have 4 wheels so it's an entirely different situation, you get quite effective braking from 3 wheels on a car but on a bike you are almost totally reliant on the front so when the ABS activates you get almost no brakes.
The main advantage in a car is you car steer whilst emergency braking but I'm not sure you can trust the ABS on a bike to prevent the whole lot washing out at the front.
JohnnyBoxer said:
I only know aircraft systems, but they went from mechanical systems to electrical control (both using hydraulics as the motive force) easily more than 20 years ago.
And your diesel has probably got a seperate pump for the braking, sound familiar?
I'll admit that I don't know of any cars with electric pumps aka servo to provide the motive force but I'll bet that there will be some in the near future.
Mmmmmmmm
Agree with JB here....
Take for instance the couple of slides he's had, and we've all had them (and even fallen off) back or front, or both, slide and we regain composure wether by skill (naaah) or good luck (yeah yeah) but we stop on the bike. The extra weight of the ABS, or luggage, or pillion, whatever, could have kept the bike sliding... into the ditch. So I think that the weight saving (apart from complexity and cost) is an issue.
I've fallen off quite a few times, hit a few cars in my life, and on none of these occasions would ABS have saved me... hit a few cars? Or did THEY hit me? No matter... the shit hit the fan because I broke the golden rule... I put my bike somewhere that my brain, my eyes, hadn't been five seconds before.
Sheet ice? forget ABS it won't help you! You need luck and somewhere comfortable to land! Without either you're eating hospital food!
Forget about ABS on a motorbike for braking while cornering... we've only got two wheels, we're single track, it doesn't work. When ABS comes in you've just locked the wheel, it will slide out... fact! It's OK for the nerds in their cars to get them out of the trouble that, had their brains been there five seconds earlier, they wouldn't be in!
We had police bikes with ABS and some without, and when you went out on one that didn't have it you didn't ride any differently, you didn't think "Oh my Gawd..." you just, quite simply, rode it... even on 999 calls it wasn't any different! We had accidents of course, but if the brain had been there five seconds earlier....
To answer Mike P's question, as Johnny did, ABS is OK for backup, if the shit hits the fan, it may well save you, it's down to personal choice, but it's not there for lack of personal riding skills in everyday riding, to be relied upon without thought, judgement, planning or anticipation!
C'mon now, lets be honest, look at the accidents that you've had, would ABS have saved you? I guess that maybe one in ten it might have, so what about the other nine!!!
A guy tells me that a bloke in a car, in a lay by, set off, did a U turn and T boned him! ABS wouldn't have helped, he didn't have time to brake. I asked what the car driver was doing before he set off doing a U turn... "Dunno" said the guy. I asked..
Was he reading the paper?
Were the front wheels pointing straight ahead?
Could you see his face in the mirror?
Any smoke from the exhaust?
Was the rear brake lights on?
Did the rear brake lights go off?
"Dunno"
Bet he looks and notices next time though! OK... sorry, I've gone on a bit. I'll shut up and wait for the flak coming in....
Never have an accident and be in a position afterwards to say "I failed to spot a prat!" The prat of course can be us on occasions!
There are two kinds of motorcyclists... those that have had an accident, and those that are going to have one
to all!
Agree with JB here....
Take for instance the couple of slides he's had, and we've all had them (and even fallen off) back or front, or both, slide and we regain composure wether by skill (naaah) or good luck (yeah yeah) but we stop on the bike. The extra weight of the ABS, or luggage, or pillion, whatever, could have kept the bike sliding... into the ditch. So I think that the weight saving (apart from complexity and cost) is an issue.
I've fallen off quite a few times, hit a few cars in my life, and on none of these occasions would ABS have saved me... hit a few cars? Or did THEY hit me? No matter... the shit hit the fan because I broke the golden rule... I put my bike somewhere that my brain, my eyes, hadn't been five seconds before.
Sheet ice? forget ABS it won't help you! You need luck and somewhere comfortable to land! Without either you're eating hospital food!
Forget about ABS on a motorbike for braking while cornering... we've only got two wheels, we're single track, it doesn't work. When ABS comes in you've just locked the wheel, it will slide out... fact! It's OK for the nerds in their cars to get them out of the trouble that, had their brains been there five seconds earlier, they wouldn't be in!
We had police bikes with ABS and some without, and when you went out on one that didn't have it you didn't ride any differently, you didn't think "Oh my Gawd..." you just, quite simply, rode it... even on 999 calls it wasn't any different! We had accidents of course, but if the brain had been there five seconds earlier....
To answer Mike P's question, as Johnny did, ABS is OK for backup, if the shit hits the fan, it may well save you, it's down to personal choice, but it's not there for lack of personal riding skills in everyday riding, to be relied upon without thought, judgement, planning or anticipation!
C'mon now, lets be honest, look at the accidents that you've had, would ABS have saved you? I guess that maybe one in ten it might have, so what about the other nine!!!
A guy tells me that a bloke in a car, in a lay by, set off, did a U turn and T boned him! ABS wouldn't have helped, he didn't have time to brake. I asked what the car driver was doing before he set off doing a U turn... "Dunno" said the guy. I asked..
Was he reading the paper?
Were the front wheels pointing straight ahead?
Could you see his face in the mirror?
Any smoke from the exhaust?
Was the rear brake lights on?
Did the rear brake lights go off?
"Dunno"
Bet he looks and notices next time though! OK... sorry, I've gone on a bit. I'll shut up and wait for the flak coming in....
Never have an accident and be in a position afterwards to say "I failed to spot a prat!" The prat of course can be us on occasions!
There are two kinds of motorcyclists... those that have had an accident, and those that are going to have one
to all!
ABS ??
After reading all the pros and cons about ABS, I am still not yet convinced about having it specked on my future 12ADV. But I would like to find out why ABS brake dont make your insurance cheaper..?
when I sold my ABS 1150 the price difference was petty conpared to a non ABS bike?..
I would like to know the weight difference for the 12 ADV?? ABS or not??.
£800 is a good sum and could pay for panniers?? maybe..
After reading all the pros and cons about ABS, I am still not yet convinced about having it specked on my future 12ADV. But I would like to find out why ABS brake dont make your insurance cheaper..?
when I sold my ABS 1150 the price difference was petty conpared to a non ABS bike?..
I would like to know the weight difference for the 12 ADV?? ABS or not??.
£800 is a good sum and could pay for panniers?? maybe..
I can't see anything you have said that is a valid argument against ABS.Micky said:
If anyone is daft enough to ride thinking ABS will prevent a collision, then it's not the fault of ABS equipped bikes!
Complexity? That's debatable (and it's still on-going!)
Weight?
Now this is an argument that really makes me smile. If any BMW (let alone a GS) was a lithe, svelte, precision tool, the extra few kilo's might make a noticable difference. On a lardy machine like a GS, those few kilo's are not going to be noticed - especially when it's loaded with the junk we carry when touring let alone the bolt-on extra's that most of us fit!Can I say with any certainty that ABS has prevent me having an off?
No. Of course not (I cannot prove a negative).
Have there been instances when the ABS has kicked in? Yes. Would I have come off but for the ABS? Who knows for certain? Having come off a couple of times in similar circumstances on non-ABS bikes, it's possible that it saved me from a few low speed spills on dodgy surfaces.
Seeing a BMW tester demonstrate an ABS equipped K100LT at TRRL as guests of BMW (GB) back in the late 80's, against a standard braked K100C fitted with wierd looking but effective outriggers, I'm in no doubt that ABS is beneficial.
When it comes to re-sale values, then it depends on the buyer. Some will obviously be prepared to pay for a non-ABS bike if that's their preference. There are enough ABS equipped bikes for those who prefer it.
Braking mid-corner? Of course it shouldn't happen in a perfect world. Travelling at a speed in which you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear, etc. etc.
Might as well do away with Telelever as well as ABS! After all, Telelever does isolate some of the steering/braking forces enough to allow some mid-corner braking! Of course if you are braking to the point of a skid/ABS operating mid-corner, neither will be much use and that's where we come to observation/planning etc. avoiding that situation in the first place.
That of course is in that rarified atmosphere of the 'Perfect World,' (something Roadcraft even recognises as unreal by advising gentle use of the rear brake to bleed off excess speed in a corner).
Micky, all your points are valid about collision avoidance but don't provide any evidence that ABS is not an advantage.
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