to ABS or not to ABS?

[Cookson]

Glad I had ABS on my Merc Van today, stupid tart in a Range Rover, with Granny & kids in, pulled out on me, I stamped on the brakes, ABS kicked in & I steered around her, while she looked at me as tho I'd done something wrong.

STUPID F'ING PEG HEADED TART.


Made me think how I would have faired on my none ABS GSA. ?????

I think I would have been under the front, who knows.


Food for thought, eh.

 

[Deadskin]

ABS

The helpfullness of ABS
A couple of years ago travelling on a dual carrageway i'm on the inside lane comming up to a roundabout, i can see a car in my mirror in the outside lane,
i'm going around the roundabout when the car which is going to fast
drifts into my lane and side swipes me ,
my mirror flys off in the collision and my direction has changed and i'm now heading for the kerb and crash barrier beyond
I stomp on the brakes and the ABS cuts in as i'm on the loose gravel
that's been deposited on the outside edge of the roundabout,
i come to a safe stop put the side stand down looked around and the cars gone, picked up the mirror and popped it back on and went home.

This was'nt on a GS but a K1200LT and the ABS saved me a lot of money
and possibly a few days of hospital cuisine ...

 

[Engineer]

ABS is probably a good thing for normal road riding - the problem is BMW's silly electric servo ABS system! Why- oh-why do they need a servo and all the extra complication, it is just more to go wrong (with absolutely no benefit), as has been noticed by so many people. I suspect that BMW have now got the message because they have apparently dropped the servo on the new R1200S sports bike, but kept the ABS - DOH! why didn't they do this earlier?

 

[JimVonBaden]

ABS is probably a good thing for normal road riding - the problem is BMW's silly electric servo ABS system! Why- oh-why do they need a servo and all the extra complication, it is just more to go wrong (with absolutely no benefit), as has been noticed by so many people. I suspect that BMW have now got the message because they have apparently dropped the servo on the new R1200S sports bike, but kept the ABS - DOH! why didn't they do this earlier?

Do a test of two bikes, one with servo ABS and one with standard ABS (no servos). You will find the non-servo ABS, when activated, is very jerky and abrupt, quite startling. The servo-ABS, on the other hand, is very smooth when the ABS activates. THAT alone is good enough reason, plus one finger full power stops, because few of us actually cover the brakes with the necessary 3-4 fingers a non-servo ABS bike requires for a full power stop.

Jim :brow

 

[PRR]

Why- oh-why do they need a servo and all the extra complication, it is just more to go wrong (with absolutely no benefit)...

It is probably much easier (or necessary?) to use servos when designing an adaptive linking between the brakes like the one BMW have as opposed to a simple fixed linking like Guzzi or Honda with CBS. That's what I think is the reason (and benefit) for the servos.

I suspect that BMW have now got the message because they have apparently dropped the servo on the new R1200S sports bike, but kept the ABS - DOH!

On the S it is very logical to have a different extremely light non-linked ABS. I'm guessing that it is based on the system from the F-bikes with it's limitations (pulses felt in levers). If my guess is right, I don't think that such a simple system will ever appear on other R- and K-bikes.

BMW may develop a new system, maybe less technically complicated, but not likely just stripped of features. That would be so very non-BMW for several reasons.

 

[Pukmeister]

I don't think the problem is so much the ABS itself as the excessive power draw by the servo pump and the eventual drop in battery terminal voltage that causes the ABS to fail through repeated heavy braking. Maybe a smaller servo pump with less power draw, and an uprated battery could solve it ??

 

[Meath]

The helpfullness of ABS
A couple of years ago travelling on a dual carrageway i'm on the inside lane comming up to a roundabout, i can see a car in my mirror in the outside lane,
i'm going around the roundabout when the car which is going to fast
drifts into my lane and side swipes me ,
my mirror flys off in the collision and my direction has changed and i'm now heading for the kerb and crash barrier beyond
I stomp on the brakes and the ABS cuts in as i'm on the loose gravel
that's been deposited on the outside edge of the roundabout,
i come to a safe stop put the side stand down looked around and the cars gone, picked up the mirror and popped it back on and went home.

This was'nt on a GS but a K1200LT and the ABS saved me a lot of money
and possibly a few days of hospital cuisine ...

That's a good point that i was going to make. In the real world ABS can be usefull, like when you need to break where a tractor has just pulled out of a field and put mud all over the road, or when you filter between lanes and there can be a slight buildup of sand and grit, which is what happened to me and the abs kicked in and helped.
If anyone thinks that the extra weight of the abs is a problem, go on a diet and lose a few pounds, have a dump before you ride, and only ever half fill your tank.

 

[Micky]

I can't see anything you have said that is a valid argument against ABS.

Weight? Now this is an argument that really makes me smile.

Seeing a BMW tester demonstrate an ABS equipped K100LT at TRRL as guests of BMW (GB) back in the late 80's, against a standard braked K100C fitted with wierd looking but effective outriggers, I'm in no doubt that ABS is beneficial.

Micky, all your points are valid about collision avoidance but don't provide any evidence that ABS is not an advantage.

Sorry for a late reply... been away on the bike to Bonnie Scotland for a few days

Mike, I don't wish to produce any evidence that ABS is/isn't an advantage. It's just 'pros and cons'. I firmly believe it to be an advantage (as with linked brakes) in inexperienced hands, but a 'possible' handicap to the more experienced rider! The definition of 'inexperienced' or 'expert' is of course wide open. I only know that an 'ex' is a 'has been' and a 'spert' is a 'drip under pressure' ......

It's quite relevent that it was a BMW tester that was riding the K100LT and outbraking a none ABS equipped similar 'bike... he would do wouldn't he, being employed by BMW. I appreciate that ABS is now much more refined and reactive since those early days in the 80's, but I've seen the instructors at the Nürburgring constantly outbrake ABS equipped 'bikes 'under test conditions'.

All I'm saying is that when ABS kicks in you probably double the braking distance attainable by keeping the braking at the point 'just before' the ABS comes in (where maximum braking is available) The question of whether we can do this or not is another matter of course

Weight... still an issue methinks. After all, BMW see fit to put the petrol tank on an F650GS under the seat to lower the C of G to make for 'easy handling and safe road behaviour'. They think this is important, it's in their advertising blurb! The fact that they put a lead acid battery and oil tank in it's place is quite amusing But manufacturers do constantly strive to reduce weight...

My other argument against ABS, which will probably open up another can of worms methinks, is my dislike for flourescent jackets, yellow sam browns, daylight headlights, and the Highway Code saying that us motorcyclists should wear bright clothing, white helmets etc. We should be seen! What the hell... we are there to BE seen! "Sorry mate, didn't seeya!" We are visible, if they'd looked.

Now I know we can be seen, we're more visible, but I have a hunch that the rider that has all these 'safety aids' (ABS included) might just be thinking that he/she's done all they can, done their bit... and just ride! "Well, the onus is now on the other road users isn't it... I've done my bit" Well I'd much rather do 'their' thinking for them.

I'm sure you know of police motorcyclists that have been 'T' boned by the myopic car driver pulling out on them... despite flashing blue lights and two tone horns I've got the T shirt to be sure

Every moment that I'm riding my 'bike I'm thinking "How can I get hurt here?"
It's by far the best aid to safety...

Cheers

 

[MikeP]

My other argument against ABS, which will probably open up another can of worms methinks, is my dislike for flourescent jackets, yellow sam browns, daylight headlights, and the Highway Code saying that us motorcyclists should wear bright clothing, white helmets etc. We should be seen! What the hell... we are there to BE seen! "Sorry mate, didn't seeya!" We are visible, if they'd looked.

Now I know we can be seen, we're more visible, but I have a hunch that the rider that has all these 'safety aids' (ABS included) might just be thinking that he/she's done all they can, done their bit... and just ride! "Well, the onus is now on the other road users isn't it... I've done my bit" Well I'd much rather do 'their' thinking for them.

Micky,

The BMW(GB) ABS demo was done on wet cobbles. I think it is generally accepted that ABS in the dry, good surface, experienced rider etc will generally extend braking distances. I'm not surprised that Nurburgring Instructors can outbrake an ABS equipped bike for those reasons.

The difference lies in everyday riding. Until they can come up with a clever enough bike that can appreciate the differences and switch off the ABS in a nano second when it's not needed, I'll stick with it.

Have to agree with you about the hi-viz gear, apart from reflex red on the rear of my panniers, I don't bother. I have a black bike and wear all black gear.

I was a strong advocate of hi-viz at work but that was for when off the bike at collision scenes on fast roads etc.

There was some truth in the old 'Volvo driver mentality' that stats showed increased collisions after the wearing of seatbelts became compulsory. Same can be applied to both ABS and hi-viz as you say but that is the fault of the rider not the ABS.

 

[bingbong]

Well....this really has kicked of a good discussion on what people think of ABS. micky has hit the nail on the head for me. I am always in favour of being in charge of my own destiny and trust my own judgement. And if it goes wrong...its my fault. I do worry about the technical difficulties of the BMW system when considering reliability as i will have this bike way past its warranty period. I gues i have just answered my own original question of to have it or not. But as a side issue I really was intrigued as to how many BMW buyers put ABS on or near the top of the list when purchasing. I detect that the more senior / experienced riders think "i've managed this far without anything serious happening", or that the device wouldn't have helped them anyway. I suppose in the end it won't be a problem because thye powers that know better will remove this choice for us and make it compulsory because some pipe smoking tweed jacketed expense busting eurocrat thinks its a good idea! Oops better stop now as ramble winging is about to comence. night all......

 

[Micky]

Well....this really has kicked of a good discussion on what people think of ABS.

Bingbong... Hope it's all helped you! I tend to agree (mostly) with what MikeP has to say on the matter, just that I've come down on the none ABS side of the fence, so to speak!

MikeP... black bike and gear, strewth, your not Michael Knight are ya? I used to watch Knight Rider with the kids...

Gauloiuses... no doubt the ABS did help you after the 'coming together' on the roundabout, but to get involved with the car in the first place You saw the car appraching 'too fast' from the rear, knew he was there and going too fast, and still got involved. Sorry, but I'd have been braking and let him go on in front of me!

"We start with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The plan is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck is emptied!"

 

[Tomm]

Hi all ..
This is interesting reading but I do have a couple of questions.

Firstly what is the weight difference between ABS and Non ABS 1200GS?

Second .. was reading a review in one of the comics and they did a 'brake comparison' .. the ABS 1200GS out performing the other bikes (tiger,Varado,KTM). However the tester marked the GS brake system down because the ABS was fooled by rumble strips in the road. Any else have experience of this?

I am still undecided about ABS but have a month or so yet before I'm in the market .....

 

[Tomm]

PS .. Micky .. is that Cadwell by any chance .. ?

If only i could work out how to insert a #*/%$ picture !!!

 

[PRR]

Hi all ..
Firstly what is the weight difference between ABS and Non ABS 1200GS?

If I remember correctly it's close to 4.5 kg.

 

[Mouse]

Yes if you brake hard over rumble strips the ABS can activate momentarily - not really a big deal IMHO.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Actually big fun IMHO - just approach as fast as you dare and brake nice and hard................try it

Andres

 

[JayGee]

Yep, brake hard on a rumble strip and see your braking distances extend way too far. It seems to take far too long to reapply the brakes and this is sort of mentioned in the manual addendum recently sent out by BMW. It's one of the least attractive bits of the ABS. Seems to me the ABS is set-up/programmed to activate too soon, try an e-stop on a dry surface and you'll see what I mean, try it on a rumble strip and scare yourself.
When deciding to buy the bike ABS was an attractive proposition. I thought it was something that would improve my safety on the road and could help me when having to brake hard in an emergency. Now I'm not so sure. It seems to take over control way before I'm in trouble and actually puts me in a worse situation by extending my braking distance. Of course you could argue that if it didn't I would be in even bigger trouble and that it's saving me from the front sliding out, all I can say is I like to be in control.
The other point about ABS is that it sounds really good but brake hard when banked over and I suspect it will still go down/slide as the ABS only senses when the wheel is about to lock not when it is about to loose sideways grip due to cornering forces. There's only so much grip available, use it for braking (even with ABS) and there is less for cornering so the front may well slide out on a corner before the ABS kicks in. A front wheel slide when upright is frightening but reasonably easy to control so I don't really see the point of this ABS and next time I'm going for non-ABS, at least that way I'll only have myself to blame if I get it wrong.

 

[ktmmark]

Only use to ride in summer & never had a problem as grip on the rubber these days is awsome (liked doing stoppies on a supermoto ) But with the BMW i ride all year & to my supprise i had the abs come in as i stopped @ a junction on what was black ice .
So if you ride in all weathers it's worth it (well i think so)

 

[JayGee]

Only use to ride in summer & never had a problem as grip on the rubber these days is awsome (liked doing stoppies on a supermoto ) But with the BMW i ride all year & to my supprise i had the abs come in as i stopped @ a junction on what was black ice .
So if you ride in all weathers it's worth it (well i think so)

Yeh but try doing a stoppie in the dry on the beemer and you'll find the front ABS lets go very early, I guess it's a trade off poorer braking in the dry but maybe safer in the slippy/icey conditions.

 

[Deadskin]

Mickey... no doubt the ABS did help you after the 'coming together' on the roundabout, but to get involved with the car in the first place You saw the car appraching 'too fast' from the rear, knew he was there and going too fast, and still got involved. Sorry, but I'd have been braking and let him go on in front of me![/QUOTE]

I did not see the car approching too fast,
he just lost it on the roundabout

ABS cost me £85 for a new mirror instead of hundreds + the added bonus of not having a 800lb bike landing on top of me

I wear a HG hi viz jacket, been riding bikes 24 years did 5 years despatching,
this was my first and only accident..

So stick that in your patronisng pipe and smoke it