To use a North American 2610 over here...

[Greg Masters]

Re: Re: To use a North American 2610 over here...

Or is there a way to load City Navigator maps and Worldmap at the same time, in one "load operation"?

It's not a problem if your do it in one operation. When you have selected the City Navigator 'tiles' that you want to load, swap to the WorldMap and add its tiles to your selection to load. Then load the Datacard as usual.

When we went to Morocco, I had the Spannish maps from City Navigator and the Moroccan parts of the WorldMap. Where the maps overlap, the City Navigator has priority just as it does over the basemap.

If fact, in retrospect, the basemap might have been better in Morocco than the WorldMap as the data is hardly any different and you can autoroute on the basemap.

Greg

 

[MiGSel]

I see, thanks Greg!

 

[mrTickle]

As Greg said, it’s no problem as long as both map sets are loaded at the same time.

WorldMap cannot auto- route but I don't think it’s a problem. That's because the countries not covered by the auto-routing of CN5 will most likely have only one major road between each town. I just follow the road outline using the display on the GPS (my previous Streetpilot I was non auto-routing & worked great for an across Africa trip ) to get where I'm going.

 

[MiGSel]

Then maybe it does make sense to bite the bullet and get the 2Gb CF card, so you can fit all of Europe CityNav and the WorldMap at once?

If you can't fit it all on one card, and you need to reload the maps because of that, it's gonna take several hours I assume. Not a big problem if you remember to do it on time, but if not...

 

[Greg Masters]

Then maybe it does make sense to bite the bullet and get the 2Gb CF card, so you can fit all of Europe CityNav and the WorldMap at once?

Would you really need to? I guess that it would be a very long ride that took you further than you could load onto a 1Gb card?

Greg

 

[MiGSel]

Yes, you're right. But on the other hand, if you take the 2Gb card, you'll never have to reload it.

At least I think you can put both the Europe CityNav and the Worldmap on it entirely.

 

[mrTickle]

You're limited to uploading 1200 mapsets into the 2610, no matter how much memory you have. The entire WorldMap ( excluding the built in North American basemap ) is 1270 mapsets & only 103.8Mb of memory, so even if you have a 2Gb memory card, you can't load all of it.

Having 2 x 1Gb memory cards is more flexible ( also on your wallet ). You can then use one in your camera when you don't need it for your 2610.

In reality, you'll probably be using the GPS 95% of the time in an area that the 128Mb card can can cover ( in my case, 128Mb covers all of England, Wales and the top half of Scotland ).

 

[MiGSel]

Very useful info Mr. T, my wallet & Visa card thank you!

 

[PanEuropean]

There are some disadvantages to using a North American model SP 26xx in Europe. I'm not shilling for Garmin here, but in the interests of making sure everyone makes a fully informed decision, here is some info that I posted in another moto GPS forum (Horizons Unlimited) about this topic:

To understand how the GPS works, and why buying a North American version for use in Europe would not be a good idea, here is some information.

1) Basemap Issues

All Garmin GPS receivers (GPSR's) ship with a built in basemap. The basemap is "burned into" an EPROM (programmable read only memory) within the unit at the time of manufacture, and cannot be updated or changed by the user.

Garmin has (at least) two versions of basemaps, "Americas", which covers North America down to about Costa Rica, and "Atlantic", which covers Europe east to about Turkey and south to about the bottom of Algeria.

The basemaps serve two important purposes: first, they enable your GPS to display some limited information (major highways) when you do not have any other cartography loaded into your GPSR's memory, and second, they are used to create the screen display when the zoom setting is set to 8km zoom or greater.

If you are using an Americas GPSR in Europe, you won't benefit from the basic highway information when you don't have other cartography products loaded, or for countries that Garmin does not have cartography products for (e.g. Turkey, Algeria, Poland etc.). Also, if you zoom out to a view greater than 8 km, you will see a blank screen.

2) Included Cartography Issues

Garmin includes a set of CD's with every automotive GPSR that they sell. By "automotive", I mean the GPS V, StreetPilot III, and SP 2610/2650 series. The area covered by the CD's corresponds to the basemap of the unit - by this I mean North American purchasers of a GPS V get City Select North America, and European Purchasers get City Select Europe.

Any Garmin GPSR that is capable of auto-routing - and this includes the GPS V - uses a serial number unlock code for the cartographic data that is stored on the CD's. By this I mean that in order to use the CD's in the GPSR, and benefit from the information that they provide, you must have an unlock code that corresponds to the serial number of your specific GPSR. No doubt the person planning to sell you the North American GPS V has a set of City Select North America CD's, with a valid unlock code for that particular serial number GPSR.

But, the North American CD's are of no value to you whatsoever if you plan to use the GPSR in Europe. You can't copy (duplicate, borrow, pirate, whatever) the data from someone else's City Select Europe CD's, because you won't have a valid unlock code that matches the serial number of your GPSR.

Your only choice will be to buy a set of City Select Europe CD's as a stand-alone product. This is expensive - list price for the current version of City Select Europe is USD 350. See this link for details: Garmin Website - City Select Europe.

Even if you fork out the USD 350 for the set of Europe CD's and the unlock code, you still will be stuck with a GPSR that will not display map detail at wide zoom levels (beyond 8 km). You could correct this problem by purchasing or pirating a copy of WorldMap and loading the appropriate segments onto your data chip, but you will then have a very old (ca. 1998) underlying map, not a contemporary one, so when you zoom out, roads will not match up properly.

I have been a Garmin user for several years - had a SP III (actually had 2, one for North America and one for Europe), now have a SP 2650, and I beta-test these units for Garmin - my specialty is testing their suitability for motorcycle applications. Trust me, I know what I am talking about, and I am not shilling for Garmin. There is just no economical way to buy a GPSR in America and use it in Europe.

Some people get so caught up with the desire to beat the system that they buy a North American unit, then load it with older European cartography (e.g. the old 'Roads and Rec' CD's, or the old 'MetroGuide' CD's). These older cartographic products don't use a serial number unlock system, so they can be copied and shared easily - but the problem is, the data is now over 4 years out of date, and none of them support autorouting - so it's kind of pointless to spend the money on the hardware (a GPS V) and then ride around with way out of date maps, and no routing ability.

Your best bet is to search eBay in Europe for used GPS V's or used SP III's. Now that the SP 2610 and SP 2650 are shipping, there are quite a few of the V's and III's on eBay. Make sure you are buying a European unit, and make sure it comes both with the Europe CD's AND the appropriate unlock code for the Europe CD's.

----------------------

The original URL for this post is: Horizons Unlimited

PanEuropean

 

[BurnieM]

Micheal,
It depends....

I am using a US market GPS V in Australia.

I have WorldMap.
The Asia/Pacific basemap (in Australian sourced units) seems to be identical to WorldMap. I agree that this data is many (30+ ?) years out of date.

Garmin appears to have updated the North American basemaps but ignored large parts of the rest of the world.
I do not know what the situation with European basemaps is.

I also have Metroguide Australia (non auto-routing). I selected it because of it's significantly better rural coverage than City Navigator Australia.
It was also half the price.
MGA uses an unlock code.

I have just ordered a US market GPSmap 176 and 64MB card.
I selected the GPSmap 176 because;
1. it has a bigger screen
2. it has much faster screen redraw
3. it is a customisable, 'technical' GPSr

I ordered monochrome as I believe it will be better in sunshine.
I will use my second unlock code for MGA and also load WorldMap for higher zooms.

Auto-routing would be nice to have but not essential as most of my use is 400km motorcycle day rides and 4WDing, both of which involve a general route only with lots of exploring side roads.

 

[BurnieM]

Max zoom that Metroguide detail is displayed on a Americas basemap GPS V
(firmware 2.50);
- detail Normal - 3 km
- detail More - 8 km
- detail Most - 12 km

 

[Greg Masters]

1) Basemap Issues

Garmin has (at least) two versions of basemaps, "Americas", which covers North America down to about Costa Rica, and "Atlantic", which covers Europe east to about Turkey and south to about the bottom of Algeria.

Actually the basemap coverage is much better than that, covering all of the African continent and Madagascar (see below).

The basemaps serve two important purposes: first, they enable your GPS to display some limited information (major highways) when you do not have any other cartography loaded into your GPSR's memory, and second, they are used to create the screen display when the zoom setting is set to 8km zoom or greater.

If you are using an Americas GPSR in Europe, you won't benefit from the basic highway information when you don't have other cartography products loaded, or for countries that Garmin does not have cartography products for (e.g. Turkey, Algeria, Poland etc.). Also, if you zoom out to a view greater than 8 km, you will see a blank screen.

I believe that both of these issues can be satisfactorily addressed by also loading the WorldMap data. With CF cards up to 2Gb being widely available, data capacity is not the problem that it is with other Garmin units.

... in order to use the CD's in the GPSR, and benefit from the information that they provide, you must have an unlock code that corresponds to the serial number of your specific GPSR.

The originator of this thread has found an entirely legitimate resolution to that problem.

You could correct this problem by purchasing or pirating a copy of WorldMap and loading the appropriate segments onto your data chip, but you will then have a very old (ca. 1998) underlying map, not a contemporary one, so when you zoom out, roads will not match up properly.

When in Morocco in 2003 I had both the basemap and the WorldMap loaded. Not only were they out of date, but they weren't even accurate when they were new! I found many instances of riding along a main road whilst the GPS showed me apparently blazing some new trail 2 or 3 miles parallel to a road shown on the GPS!


Mr Tickle has found a novel solution to his challenge of being able to use a 2610 (with all the functionality that that offers) and European autorouting mapping at a price that the USA enjoys for a similar system. The bunce is that, should he ever decide to travel to the USA, he has full CityNavigator mapping at his disposal too!

Until Garmin are able to introduce broadly comparable pricing for their American and Atlantic products (and I know that their buy-in price for mapping data varies), these solutions will remain attractive for at least a minority of users - me included!

Greg

 

[BurnieM]

Agree that the quality of the WorldMap (and Pacific basemap) is poor in Australia.

In (literally) hundreds of places the main highways are 400m-1500m out

 

[PanEuropean]

Greg:

Referring to your post on the previous page where you quote some of the things I said -

I have no disagreement with anyone who uses a GPSR from one region in another region. The post I made here was a cut/paste from a post I made in the Horizons Unlimited BB, replying to a European user who thought he was getting a great deal on an Americas GPS V. His circumstances were a bit different.

What I was attempting to do, by reposting it here, was bring to everyone's attention some of the more subtle issues involved when you use a GPSR from one region in another region.

I live in Canada, and work in Switzerland. I'm back and forth all the time. Eventually I got fed up with the difficulties I encountered with "wrong basemaps" and just bought a second unit, so I left the Americas one in Canada, and the Atlantic one in Europe.

The advent of the SP 26xx series, with the huge capacity of the CF cards and the faster screen redraws mitigates some of the problems I had with the SP III's. But still, anyone who plans to get an America's basemap and use it in Europe needs to be well informed, so they can make the best possible decision and not have any unwanted surprises. Individual needs vary.

For example, with an Atlantic SP III or Atlantic SP 26xx, you can autoroute through areas that don't even have CD based cartographic coverage - by example, Poland, Croatia, North Africa. WorldMap won't support autorouting. Maybe this is not of any interest to someone who spends all their time in Western Europe, but it would be of great interest to someone who plans to ride in these areas - as I have, every year, for the last 3 years. Also worth noting is that the European basemap supports autorouting through areas of Western Europe that still have very spotty and incomplete CN data, for example, Ireland, Spain, and parts of Norway and Sweden.

The "trick" of using WorldMap to replace the basemap works in the SP III, but whether it works in the SP 26xx I don't know. How long this trick will work in the SP 26xx is another question altogether, software evolves and changes made for other reasons might result in the WorldMap data not being used at larger scales (I don't know anything you don't, I'm just raising a possibility).

The more people know, the better a decision they can make. My own decision - because I am a "heavy user" (30,000 km a year, just on the moto, mostly in Europe), was to get the European basemap. When I am in Canada, I use the new MetroGuide Canada version 4, which has far better coverage of rural Canada than either CN or the Americas basemap. So I guess I'm the real oddball here - a North American resident with a "grey market" Atlantic (European) SP 2650.

PanEuropean

 

[BurnieM]

The zoom levels that different mapping products display is set in the mapping product.
You can see this using a third party tool like 'MapEdit'.
Garmin would have to make major changes to their unit firmware to break this WorldMap 'trick'

Maybe if Garmin put some effort into producing an accurate, up to date basemap for Europe and also Pacific then we would be prepared to pay the significantly extra dollars/euros as we would actually be getting something extra for our extra money.

 

[Greg Masters]

PanEuropean

I fully support and genuinely appreciate your contribution to this thread - you're absolutely right when you write that the more people know about these issues, the better quality decision they can make to address their own needs.

In 2002, I took a trip to Algonquin Park - equipped with my (Euro) SPIII and loaded with WorldMap. A 'friend' in Canada suggested that I load in his North America CityNavigator. So I hooked up to his Datacard reader and loaded in the relevant tiles - of course, wiping the WorldMap in the process. Guess what? It didn't work! So I didn't have the CityNavigator or the WorldMap data (didn't bring the disk!).

The lessons I learned then have already been covered in this thread - I just wish your knowledge had been available to me then!

Greg

 

[mrTickle]

Just to get back on track - an imported U.S 2610 with the Worldmap & European City Navigator loaded, works fine over here ( even to the point where it lets you set the voice guidance to a UK English accent ).

There are no issues or complications registering & unlocking an American 2610 here -it's precisely the same procedure as unlocking the Atlantic model. If you already owned a SPIII, you could use its City Navigator software on an American 2610 for free ( Garmin let you register 2 GPS's on 1 copy of City Navigator ).

The 2610 is the only Garmin GPS that can be effectively used in this way, due to its large memory capability. The GPS V & SPIII have smaller memory limits, making imported versions of them impractical over here. With Worldmap loaded on my 2610, the map screen is exactly the same as my previous SPIII's and for all intensive purposes, looks and works just like an Atlantic unit, but with the benefit of North American City Navigator.

 

[roadrider]

Garmin 2610 price policy

Just a note of thanks to Pan European, Greg Masters and Mr Tickle
for the respective posts on the issues and solutions raised.

Garmins excuse for the huge price differental in american and european prices is simply this:- Mapping information in the USA is in the public Domain and therefore free, anyone building streets and roads have to by law register that info with the relevant authority. unfortunately here in europe such information is in the corporate domain and is extremely expensive and difficult to lease
the mapping info, "yes I mean lease not buy". Most of the european governments have a vested interest in this leasing arrangment as they get a share of revenues generated.

On a recent study of pricing, I have found that £400 to £490 for the 2610 in the states to be fairly common now, as opposed to £960 to over £1000. here in the UK.

On A cautionary Note:- As most USA web sites are willing to post you a unit over here, there is the thorny issue of imort tax and vat, usually you have this to pay c.o.d. The best solution is to buy when over there or if you know someone in the states to get one for you.

John

 

[PanEuropean]

Hi Greg:

Funny you should mention Algonquin Park - I went there with my wife for New Year's (in the car, of course) and brought along my SP 2650, which has a European basemap, and ran into exactly the same problems that you mention.

Cartography coverage in remote areas can be spotty on all the products (CN, MG, and the basemap) and there are some tricks I have learned the "hard way" when trying to ride through remote areas of North America. I'll try to summarize them here for the benefit of others, although I realize this is primarily a UK forum.

First - it helps you comprehend the "big picture" if you have some understanding of the origins (paternity, so to speak) of the cartography. CityNavigator and CitySelect (both North America and Europe, I don't know about South Africa and OZ) are NavTech products. MetroGuide USA - the current version - is a NavTech product, but MetroGuide Canada 4.0 - the most recent version, just released last month - comes from DTMI Spatial, a Canadian company. Both WorldMap and the basemaps in all GPSR's are Garmin products. It's worth mentioning here that the ONLY cartography products that Garmin produces themselves (as of 2003) are WorldMap and the basemaps. The basemaps for the autorouting products (GPS V, SP III, SP26xx) are identical, meaning, Americas basemap is the same on all 3 products, Atlantic basemap is the same on all 3 products.

Second - each cartographic product has strengths and weaknesses. The NavTech products are especially good in urban areas. NavTech has either driven roads themselves to collect attribute data (lane widths, exact words from signs, number of stoplights per mile, actual speed limits, etc.) or they have purchased this additional data from governments (municipal, cantonal or federal) and added it to the basic road information. But, NavTech tends to be very weak in the really remote rural areas.

Locally produced maps - for example, the MG Canada 4.0 that was compiled by the Canadian company DTMI Spatial for Garmin - have the advantage of "local knowledge", but these smaller companies don't have the experience that NavTech has in building digital cartography. The result is that often, these are much more detailed products, but they suffer from the occasional glaring omission. For example, MG Canada 4 does not show the largest, most important, and only highway in Labrador, Canada. Doh. I'm sure DTMI didn't mean to leave it out, and for a "first effort", MG Canada 4 is pretty good, but they need to gain proficiency building maps. Also, I don't know how well their user feedback system works.

The basemaps (maps burned into the GPSR's) are much more important than a lot of people seem to think. Please understand here that I don't mean any disrespect or criticism of people who have bought GPSR's from other regions. I'm just trying to say that if people comprehend how to make FULL use of their cartography - and this includes the basemap - the GPSR can be a much more useful tool out in the boonies.

During the summer of 2003, I rode across Canada and the USA, with CN North America version 5 and MetroGuide USA and Canada Enhanced Basemap cartography loaded. There were a lot of spots - Algonquin Park, rural Prairie provinces in Canada, rural Idaho, Wyoming, etc. in USA, where the basemap showed roads that were not listed in either CN or MG. But, to use this data, I had to de-select all the map families loaded in my data chip. This is because the GPSR will use the "highest in the pecking order" cartography, it will not aggregate data. In other words, to view or use the basemap info, you have to turn off the other maps.

Once I had the other maps turned off, the (North American) basemap did a great job of both showing me, and routing me through highways and roads that did not appear on the other products. I have encountered similar situations in Europe, primarily in Poland, Croatia, and North Africa, when using both WorldMap and CN. By this I mean the European basemap has data in it that CN and WorldMap does not.

Anyway - back to the original point - I was in Algonquin Park with my European SP 2650 that had CN North America and WorldMap loaded - and neither one had the roads I needed. When I got back home, I had a look at the basemap detail on my North American SP III, and sure enough, the roads were there. But, I bet you that 99 out of 100 users would not have known that to make use of the basemap, they would have had to deselect the cartography on the chip, either by pushing a few buttons on their GPSR, or simply by removing the chip from the GPSR.

PanEuropean

PS: Here's a simple way to try out what I have said above. If you have a GPSR that has the appropriate basemap for your location (Europe or North America) and you get a "funny" route when you try to calculate the route on your GPSR, or the GPSR doesn't show or make proper use of a highway or road that you know is there, turn off the GPSR, pull out the data chip, turn it back on again, and try calculating the route using the basemap only. My guess is that you will get a pleasant surprise - the route will be properly calculated. What you will have done is to use the basemap to overcome a small error or omission in the cartography that you have on the chip.

 

[mrTickle]

In the real world, a GPS is going to be used 99.9% of the time in an area where either CN or MetroGuide offers full coverage. Both CN & MG have far more detail than Garmins built in basemap, so you're better off using a GPS setup & loaded with CN or MG, rather than using its built in basemap.

I've travelled through Africa using my old Streetpilot I and I can't find one road that isn't covered by Worldmap on my 2610. I've also now found that by changing the map detail on the GPS, it alters the zoom level at which the inbuilt basemap switches over. The more map detail you have , the more you can zoom out. If you've got Worldmap loaded, this obviously makes no difference.

The following photo's are from my American 2610 with Worldmap loaded as its basemap. If the Worldmap & Atlantic Basemaps are different, it would be interesting if someone could take a picture & show their Atlantic SP's basemap detail, so I could then take a photo of my Worldmap in the same position and compare the result here.

photo 1 - Greater London @ 3 mile zoom