Totally Flummoxed New thread

[chasbmw]

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Time to open a new thread. Following on from my thread about refitting an exchange starter motor to my 2004 Rockster based trike:

I’m totally Flummoxed
Henry and I had a good fiddle with it this morning. With a properly charged battery the bike turned over well, starter working properly dropping down to around 10 volts under load.
Pulled a couple of plugs, sparking well.
Pulled both injectors, plenty of fuel
The bike obviously has compression
All fuses good. No burnt coils to be seen

Issue with the bike started after a very hot ride on Thursday, stopped for lunch
Bike did not restart. I probably buggered up the starter motor in trying to restart it.
So why is the bike dead, it has sparks compression and fuel. But no start.
If the hall sensor had failed, surely I wouldn’t have sparks?
Any sensible ideas.

A bit of background: ultra low mileage trike, very few miles in the last 10 years: it seemed to work fine, but as a precaution I replaced the in tank fuel lines and fuel filter, big O ring on the pump assembly done at the same time. New plugs fitted and valve clearances checked ( very little adjustment required, covered approximately 150 since the work was done.

it’s a trike so local independent workshops won’t touch it and doubtless the same for main dealers.

Thanks for your help guys

Charles

 

[Steptoe]

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If the hall sensor had failed, surely I wouldn’t have sparks?

You’d think so wouldn’t you …

But as I’ve posted a few times previously (as recent as last week) I’ve had customers bikes that would start and idle perfectly all day long if need be.
One touch of the throttle and engine stopped instantly.
First one I had I changed lots of parts, with no difference. In desperation I fitted another Hall sensor. Bingo. Problem solved.
Since that first bike with that peculiar problem I’ve a had few in suffering the same.
I now recognise the symptoms.

Of course, that’s not to say it could be the ECU

 

[chasbmw]

Thanks Steptoe, looks like that’s the next round in the parts cannon

 

[Ian J Hartley]

I would go with a Hall sensor first.

However, When you got a jump start from the car. Was the car engine running.?

I ask because the massive current surges from the process, could have damaged your ECU.

You should only ever jump start from a vehicle’s battery with the vehicle engine off.

 

[chasbmw]

I hope not… I seem to remember that we jump started with the engine running, but whatever the fault was it was present before the bike was jumpstarted. Main symptom was 50 mile run in 30c heat, bike left in the sun for 40 mins No Start!

 

[jefformston]

I would go with a Hall sensor first.

However, When you got a jump start from the car. Was the car engine running.?

I ask because the massive current surges from the process, could have damaged your ECU.

You should only ever jump start from a vehicle’s battery with the vehicle engine off.

The instructions I got with my jump leads state the donor vehicle engine should be running before trying to start the vehicle with the flat battery. Attach leads with engine off then start donor vehicle.

It’s they way I’ve always done it.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

You may be lucky, but something to consider if a hall sensor does not fix your initial problem.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

The instructions I got with my jump leads state the donor vehicle engine should be running before trying to start the vehicle with the flat battery. Attach leads with engine off then start donor vehicle.

It’s they way I’ve always done it.

In the olden days with the Kettering ignition systems, it didn’t matter, but modern vehicle all have engine management systems and in many cases multiple ECU’s. These devices all have integrated components that do not survive high voltage and high current spikes. While many will have protection from these surges. You’re taking an unnecessary risk doing it your way.

If you don’t believe me Google it…….

 

[Riceburner]

The instructions I got with my jump leads state the donor vehicle engine should be running before trying to start the vehicle with the flat battery. Attach leads with engine off then start donor vehicle.

It’s they way I’ve always done it.

If jumping a car from a car, then that's fine. (Which is most likely the scenario assumed by the instructions for the jump leads).

If jumping a bike from a car, then the car battery by itself has more than enough oomf to start the bike without the car engine needing to be running, and without any very high voltage surges from the car possibly causing damage to the lighter weight electrics of the bike.

 

[chasbmw]

New conundrum:
HES is on its way
Steptoes trick of using the starter motor to free the nut worked well.
The HES actuator disc looks a bit mullered. The locating tab is bent sideways and is almost flat see photos.
I assume that it should be straight and bent downwards?
If it’s heated and recent I might be able to salvage it. Picture of what a good one looks like would help.
Could this have been the original reason why the bike didn’t start

 

[chasbmw]

Sensor ring is now fixed, a bit of heat and Henry’s help.
ADV tip for refitting, us a tab of glue to temporarily stick sensor ring to pulley, much easier to handle and get everything aligned

 

[chasbmw]

I am in the process of fitting a new HES. Assuming I’m careful , thinking of using the bottom little whole to mark the crankcase, so as it’s in the same position as the old is that it. No real need to check the timing, constructing timing boxes. Any advice welcome
Charles

 

[Steptoe]

ADV tip for refitting, us a tab of glue to temporarily stick sensor ring to pulley, much easier to handle and get everything aligned

Dab of grease also works and less fecking about

 

[chasbmw]

Still flummoxed!
Replaced the HES . Timing still looks good.
Sparks well but no action from the engine.
Tried a blast of easy start into each cylinder
Action.
So looks like it’s fuel not ignition!
Fuel pump seems to pressurise properly
What the best way to recheck the system preferably without draining the tank and pulling the pump and filter. ( I replaced filter, U bend and pipe work about 100 miles ago).

 

[Steptoe]

Pull out the injector from each throttle body but still leave fuel line and electrical connection attached ., put them in an aerosol cap. Turn over engine and see if fuel is being sprayed from injectors.
If no fuel do you have a testing noid to test if electric signal is reaching the injector . If not use a multimeter in the injector plug and check it pulses while turning engine over.
If it does then check fuel is reaching the injector. Pull off fuel line to injector, put the end in aerosol lid/container, turn ignition on and see if fuel pumps out .

 

[chasbmw]

Thanks Steptoe, setting multimeter in the 12v range? How do I remove fuel line from injector? Great help charles

 

[Steptoe]

Thanks Steptoe, setting multimeter in the 12v range? How do I remove fuel line from injector? Great help charles

Pull metal sliding clip off where the fuel line joins the injector then pull off fuel line. There’s a rubber O ring on the end of the injector, check it’s not stuck in the fuel line connection when you pull it off ..

If fuel is being squirted out of the injector when you turn the engine over then fuel is reaching the injector and it’s also getting a pulse/electric signal so no need to remove the fuel line .. do you understand how diagnosing works ?

 

[chasbmw]

Thanks Steptoe, it’s a process of logical steps…unfortunately my brain does not always work ln the right fashion. My friend Henry is coming round shortly and as an ex quantity surveyor logic and process is his forte.

 

[chasbmw]

Henry came round, injectors fired, very little fuel and injector fuel pipes had a residue in them, so time to open up the tank again and guess what we found, aftermarket U bend had gone awol…always better to double check what you last did to the bike. Fuel pump back together and pipes well located and tightened, just waiting for the fuel pump flange O ring to resettle itself and I can put everything back together and hopefully no further owner own goals
Thanks for your help everybody.

 

[chasbmw]

Thanks Steptoe, it’s a process of logical steps…unfortunately my brain does not always work ln the right fashion. My friend Henry is coming round shortly and as an ex quantity surveyor logic and process is his forte.