Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

[Den]

Well said Mr Scotboxer.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

I recorded my vote in the survey as a "Don't Know" but I’ll be voting YES on Sep 18.

It will not be because I am anti English. All my grandparents were English born and bred and both parents too. I was born in the North East and partly brought up there, (makes me a Makem). Aside from the occasional drink fuelled comment by numpties in ref to England’s national football team, I have never heard any serious anti English comment from a Scot.

It will not be because I'm a nationalist. I have never supported the SNP.

It will not be because of a distorted view of Scotland’s history. I spent my adult life teaching the subject at secondary level and much of that was devoted to correcting the myths which still surround Scotland’s history. (Of course, if successive UK governments prior to 1997 and the Labour Scottish Executive after then, had actively encouraged a curriculum in which a knowledge of Scotland’s history and culture was accurately taught, then there might be fewer myths.

It will not be because I have an unrealistic view of Scotland’s economic resources. The oil WILL run out. Industries WILL come and go. These are facts of life. We’ll deal with them and if we screw up then that's no one's fault but our own.

I WILL be voting YES on Sep 18th because I think we can do better.

We can do better than UK governments which did nothing to mitigate the impact of economic change in Scotland in the 70s and 80s. The oil money was pissed away on unemployment benefit.

We can do better than UK governments which asset stripped their way through our nationalised industries and forced Councils to sell off our public housing without building replacements.

We can do better than UK governments which dropped any pretence of regulating the operation of the banks and the financial markets with all the consequences we have had to live through in the last 6 years.

We can do better than UK governments which covered up the murder of UK citizens in Northern Ireland until a UK PM was forced to apologise.

We can do better than the UK government which lied about its role in the miners' strike.

We can do better than UK governments which started wars on the basis of “dodgy dossiers”.

We can do better than UK governments which grovelled to Rupert Murdoch and did nothing when his minions lied and cheated and invaded the privacy of private and public figures, hacking a murdered child's phone. (Ironically, it took another newspaper to blow the gaff on the bastards.)

I could go on but the point is made: the whole London based system is rotten and needs radical change which I cannot see happening.

My only qualms in voting YES will be the fate of those parts of England and Wales and NI. But I console myself with the thought that the example of Scotland will lead people in these parts of the RUK to demand a better deal from a London centred establishment which currently plays the “beggar my neighbour – Scotland’s a subsidy junkie / isn’t that terrible, oughtn’t to be allowed” card. They wont be able to do that when we’re independent and Wales and the English regions will wake up to how they’ve been f*cked over.

I was already well on my way to a YES vote but the clincher was the two weeks I spent touring Norway this summer. It showed me what a small country CAN do when it carefully husbands its resources and spends its oil windfall and other resources on public utilities and infrastructure.

I'm not daft. I know that Scotland based politicians can be just as venal and incompetent as those at Westminster but I know that the people I vote for in a Scottish election will be accountable to me and my fellow citizens. But I think I'll be able to keep a closer eye on the buggers in Holyrood. And when they f*ck up, I'll throw them out and elect another bunch because I know that the cynics and the nay sayers are wrong and that another Scotland is possible.

That is an awful lot of typing just to say I will be voting yes because I don't like centre right or right wing governments. That is a very good reason for voting yes because Scotland will never again have a right wing government in my lifetime if they vote for independence. If you are happy with that you are quite right to vote yes. I don't want that so I will vote No.

I presume during your visit to Norway you did not pay income tax and social security tax at 35.8% as opposed to 32% here and you were happy to pay VAT at 25% as opposed to 20% here. You also would not mind paying between 25 and 30% more to rent a property there or buy your groceries. Left wing policies don't come cheap you know. Still no doubt an independent Scotland will be able to ensure we get Norwegian wage levels before we have to start paying all this extra tax.

 

[Den]

That is an awful lot of typing just to say I will be voting yes because I don't like centre right or right wing governments. That is a very good reason for voting yes because Scotland will never again have a right wing government in my lifetime if they vote for independence. If you are happy with that you are quite right to vote yes. I don't want that so I will vote No.

I presume during your visit to Norway you did not pay income tax and social security tax at 35.8% as opposed to 32% here and you were happy to pay VAT at 25% as opposed to 20% here. You also would not mind paying between 25 and 30% more to rent a property there or buy your groceries. Left wing policies don't come cheap you know. Still no doubt an independent Scotland will be able to ensure we get Norwegian wage levels before we have to start paying all this extra tax.

Would you prefer a Dacia to a Mercedes just because its cheaper, and still gets you to 's and back?
Do you ever buy a slightly more expensive product because you think its better?
Would you pay your share for a concierge if you lived in a block of flats, or let the kids run riot on the stairs?

ITS NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY! The No campaigners are obsessed by money.

I could buy a twenty year old beautiful wife from Thailand. She would be a damn sight cheaper, more efficient and better in bed than my present wife! Would we be 'better together'? The bank manager may think so, but I would not.
Why? Because its not about what is cheaper, or more efficient. Its about what is right.

You lot speak about how we 'yes' voters are blinded by images of utopia, braveheart and flower of Scotland. Maybe a few are, but do you really think that we are all so stupid?
You Mr Bennysdad, are blinded by your hatred of socialism, and your obsession with personal financial loss. A good proportion of rest of you are blinded by your loathing of 1 man ... and money .. and fear of change.

We have an opportunity which is almost unheard of throughout history and the world. A civilised country with resources being given the chance to run our own population, and you are going to throw it down the drain. What for? because you may have to pay a bit more tax and the nasty socialists .... the smelly working class idiots might get control.

Well ... shame on you and shame on your kind. You see what is happening in the UK. Rich getting a whole lot richer, economy back to pre recession levels, but food banks everywhere. Economy back to pre recession levels, but thousands more ordinary people in abject poverty. Splitting us up to the 'have's' and the 'have nothings'.
Do you really think this is going to change if we stay together?

I'm willing to take the gamble that an independent Scotland regardless of the colour of the government will not allow this disgraceful trend to continue.

The Scottish English union came to be by the greed of the nobility. Lets hope it does not stay together by the greed of the common man.

I'd better finish now. I'm beginning to push the keys too forcefully!

 

[mpgscott]

Well said ScotBoxer, agree with everything you have said..

Main one for me is that whatever we currently vote means nothing when part of the UK, not a single Torry seat in last election and look what difference our Scottish say had to the outcome buggerall as normal...

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

I'm willing to take the gamble

Good for you. I don't gamble but I am glad you acknowledge the risk that we will have to pay more tax and be governed by idiots. Whether or not they are smelly or working class has little to do with their ability to govern.

 

[Schtum]

Hmmm, you don't think so, ehh....

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news...rrounding-the-prime-ministers-shetland-visit/

 

[Schtum]

And more.....http://yes2014.net/2014/08/01/oil-around-shetland-could-be-more-than-it-appears/

 

[Den]

Very informative video Mr Schtum. Makes you wonder.

Hows about that then all you doubters? No wonder the UK government is just a wee-bit reluctant to let us go our own way.

We all know that revenue from oil isn't going to pay for everything forever, but its a fair sized 'dub' of a pension fund.

And when England has 'fracked-up' their water supply, we have a never ending supply of that stuff as well which we can sell to them ( after we've charged folk to fish in it, let people photograph the beauty of its containing lochs, and then used it to make more cheap electricity in our Hydro electric systems)...... Oh.. I nearly forgot the thousands of windmills as well, which will eventually start bringing-in revenue, and the fact that we are still sitting on foundations of unmined coal.
Then there is the added extras such as tourism,fishing,whisky, the vast amount of open unused land, the occasional manufacturing opportunities, and a reasonably small population in comparison to them down south.

Not a bad starting point for a New Compact country with plenty of leg room and little baggage

The bargain of a lifetime, and some folk are still wanting to pass it by.

 

[Captain Black]

Very informative video Mr Schtum. Makes you wonder.

Hows about that then all you doubters? No wonder the UK government is just a wee-bit reluctant to let us go our own way.

We all know that revenue from oil isn't going to pay for everything forever, but its a fair sized 'dub' of a pension fund.

And when England has 'fracked-up' their water supply, we have a never ending supply of that stuff as well which we can sell to them ( after we've charged folk to fish in it, let people photograph the beauty of its containing lochs, and then used it to make more cheap electricity in our Hydro electric systems)...... Oh.. I nearly forgot the thousands of windmills as well, which will eventually start bringing-in revenue, and the fact that we are still sitting on foundations of unmined coal.
Then there is the added extras such as tourism,fishing,whisky, the vast amount of open unused land, the occasional manufacturing opportunities, and a reasonably small population in comparison to them down south.

Not a bad starting point for a New Compact country with plenty of leg room and little baggage

The bargain of a lifetime, and some folk are still wanting to pass it by.

Sounds like you've got it all worked out.

 

[Blackal]

Sounds like you've got it all worked out.

Sounds like you don't..............


Al

 

[Captain Black]

I wonder how long they took to come up with the slogan: "Better Together"?

For those wanting Independance - it's easy......... "Independance"

But for Westminster, they had to come up with a slogan that gave no hint of the real reason they want Scotland to stay within the union - Present and future natural resources, which they desperately don't want to lose.

I think the chickens come home to roost for rUK in the event of independance..............

A more accurate slogan for Westminster to peddle - might be: "Fcuked on our own".

(mind you - the English countryside looks to be "well-fracked" in the near future)

Al

What footwear is appropriate when doing the Indepen dance ?

 

[Captain Black]

Sounds like you don't..............


Al

I've got nowt that needs working out. We will trot on regardless of Scotland's future fate.

A big part of me wants Scotland to go it alone now because I'm curious where it will all end up.

 

[Devon]

Would you prefer a Dacia to a Mercedes just because its cheaper, and still gets you to 's and back?
Do you ever buy a slightly more expensive product because you think its better?
Would you pay your share for a concierge if you lived in a block of flats, or let the kids run riot on the stairs?

ITS NOT ALL ABOUT MONEY! The No campaigners are obsessed by money.

I could buy a twenty year old beautiful wife from Thailand. She would be a damn sight cheaper, more efficient and better in bed than my present wife! Would we be 'better together'? The bank manager may think so, but I would not.
Why? Because its not about what is cheaper, or more efficient. Its about what is right.

You lot speak about how we 'yes' voters are blinded by images of utopia, braveheart and flower of Scotland. Maybe a few are, but do you really think that we are all so stupid?
You Mr Bennysdad, are blinded by your hatred of socialism, and your obsession with personal financial loss. A good proportion of rest of you are blinded by your loathing of 1 man ... and money .. and fear of change.

We have an opportunity which is almost unheard of throughout history and the world. A civilised country with resources being given the chance to run our own population, and you are going to throw it down the drain. What for? because you may have to pay a bit more tax and the nasty socialists .... the smelly working class idiots might get control.

Well ... shame on you and shame on your kind. You see what is happening in the UK. Rich getting a whole lot richer, economy back to pre recession levels, but food banks everywhere. Economy back to pre recession levels, but thousands more ordinary people in abject poverty. Splitting us up to the 'have's' and the 'have nothings'.
Do you really think this is going to change if we stay together?

I'm willing to take the gamble that an independent Scotland regardless of the colour of the government will not allow this disgraceful trend to continue.

The Scottish English union came to be by the greed of the nobility. Lets hope it does not stay together by the greed of the common man.

I'd better finish now. I'm beginning to push the keys too forcefully!

Independence? It sounds good but it's not what is on offer or what you are voting for Den. You are voting to break up the union and then being ruled By Germany and France within a soviet style Europe. Forget control of your assets: that's for Brussels to decide. independence? What will your currency be again? This independence vote is all becoming very surreal.

 

[Posh Pete]

That is an awful lot of typing just to say I will be voting yes because I don't like centre right or right wing governments. That is a very good reason for voting yes because Scotland will never again have a right wing government in my lifetime if they vote for independence. If you are happy with that you are quite right to vote yes. I don't want that so I will vote No.

I presume during your visit to Norway you did not pay income tax and social security tax at 35.8% as opposed to 32% here and you were happy to pay VAT at 25% as opposed to 20% here. You also would not mind paying between 25 and 30% more to rent a property there or buy your groceries. Left wing policies don't come cheap you know. Still no doubt an independent Scotland will be able to ensure we get Norwegian wage levels before we have to start paying all this extra tax.

The Norwegians currently have a right / centre right coalition. An independent Scotland may have such governments in the future. There is nothing intrinsically left wing about the Scots who consistently voted Tory in large numbers until the 80s.

It's corrupt, lying politicians I despise and not their political colour.

As to taxes, high taxes are neither good nor bad when considered in isolation. If we could have low taxes while still providing quality public services ( defence , Police, justice, transport, education etc) and a more equal society that would be fine. Likewise, low taxes when the standard of living is low is not merely OK but unavoidable. However, Norway has a very high standard of living, excellent public services (like the F16s doing touch and gos over my tent near Bodo airport this July) and a much more equal society.

And more equal societies are better for ALL their citizens. Socially in all kinds of ways but economically as well. I suggest you read Keynes' book about the origins of the Great Crash of the 30s for example where the widening wealth gap in the USA in the 20s was one of the key factors involved.

As to Devon's bilge about Scotland coming under the dominion of a Soviet style EU. FFS!!!! I haven't got the words.

 

[Den]

Independence? It sounds good but it's not what is on offer or what you are voting for Den. You are voting to break up the union and then being ruled By Germany and France within a soviet style Europe. Forget control of your assets: that's for Brussels to decide. independence? What will your currency be again? This independence vote is all becoming very surreal.

Make up your mind. One minute we are not getting into the EU, and thats going to fuck us up. Next minute we are in and being ruled by them.
I'm presuming that you are presuming that the UK ... or England are going to vote to come out of the EU and everything will then be rosy.

Yes Devon, it is getting a bit surreal

 

[Devon]

As to Devon's bilge about Scotland coming under the dominion of a Soviet style EU. FFS!!!! I haven't got the words.

But it's not bilge, what you write is though. This whole independence thing has become stupid: vote for independence and be ruled by Europe and don't have a currency? Yet you and others say that's what independence is?
This whole independence movement now resembles a religion and you either believe or you are an infidel! Your messiah will not give you your utopia but he has sown enough division in Scotland to last generations. All bought to you by the independence religion.

 

[Devon]

Make up your mind. One minute we are not getting into the EU, and thats going to fuck us up. Next minute we are in and being ruled by them.
I'm presuming that you are presuming that the UK ... or England are going to vote to come out of the EU and everything will then be rosy.

Yes Devon, it is getting a bit surreal

you have been told in no uncertain terms you will have to apply to join Europe and you will have to wait as membership is not given and you cannot be part of the £ even if you use it. The Nats say you will join Europe and can have a say on controlling sterling: tell me who confused Den?
The EU will return to being a trading block as it was intended. France is way ahead of the UK in sorting it and I look froward to Le Penn being the next president of France and taking down the present soviet style set up.

 

[Deleted account 210516001]

The Norwegians currently have a right / centre right coalition. An independent Scotland may have such governments in the future. There is nothing intrinsically left wing about the Scots who consistently voted Tory in large numbers until the 80s.

It's corrupt, lying politicians I despise and not their political colour.

At last someone I can agree with but my original post said the an independent Scotland would not have a right wing government in my lifetime. It will take 3 parliaments or 15 years for the central Scotland belt of voters to think the unthinkable. That would make me over 80. If we had the income levels of the Norwegians we could afford to pay their taxes and have their standard of living. We could also have their standard of welfare benefits if we adopted their entire system which is very much weighted towards saving for the hard times during the good times. Unemployment benefit is based on what you have paid in while working and there is a strong emphases on self reliance. This explains how it works and there is nothing I could not sign up to in it http://mylittlenorway.com/2009/03/norwegiannationalinsuranceschemepart1/

Voting for independence will not make Scotland Norway nor will it make us a basket case like Greece. We would be starting from where we are not where we would like to be and given the right work ethic from its population and sensible choices by its politicians an Independent Scotland could be like Norway, a thriving country with a centre right government (with its own F16s or better still Super Hornets). If we don't tackle the problem of benefit dependency and elect politicians who make bad choices to try and hang onto power we will end up like Greece. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on which way it goes neither will be in my lifetime.

 

[Den]

you have been told in no uncertain terms you will have to apply to join Europe and you will have to wait as membership is not given and you cannot be part of the £ even if you use it. The Nats say you will join Europe and can have a say on controlling sterling: tell me who confused Den?
The EU will return to being a trading block as it was intended. France is way ahead of the UK in sorting it and I look froward to Le Penn being the next president of France and taking down the present soviet style set up.

The senior advisor to the European policy centre stated recently that 'No EU member state would have "a material interest" in an independent Scotland being outside the European Union.' He is the guy who negotiated the UK's entry to the EU, so knows what he is on about.
He also wrote that politically it would be "difficult to see how the Union could reject five million Scots, who are already EU citizens".

Now, I may be confused, but didn't you just say in your previous post that we were going to be ruled by a 'soviet styled' EU. Now you are saying that the EU is going to return to a trading block? Make up your mind.
I presume that they are going to keep a 'soviet styled' block of grey concrete buildings in Brussels just for us.

The pound is as much ours as it is yours. There is nothing to stop us using it. We can, of course, collect our share, 8% of the 30 odd tons of gold reserves that you have down there, stick it in a van and bring it to Edinburgh and make Groats out of it ..... but we wont, because we are not bastards and, at the present moment, it would be in both our interests to play with the same ball for a while. We may not get to 'control it' as you say, but will look after it carefully and might just add to its value.

 

[Devon]

The senior advisor to the European policy centre stated recently that 'No EU member state would have "a material interest" in an independent Scotland being outside the European Union.' He is the guy who negotiated the UK's entry to the EU, so knows what he is on about.
He also wrote that politically it would be "difficult to see how the Union could reject five million Scots, who are already EU citizens".

Now, I may be confused, but didn't you just say in your previous post that we were going to be ruled by a 'soviet styled' EU. Now you are saying that the EU is going to return to a trading block? Make up your mind.
I presume that they are going to keep a 'soviet styled' block of grey concrete buildings in Brussels just for us.

The pound is as much ours as it is yours. There is nothing to stop us using it. We can, of course, collect our share, 8% of the 30 odd tons of gold reserves that you have down there, stick it in a van and bring it to Edinburgh and make Groats out of it ..... but we wont, because we are not bastards and, at the present moment, it would be in both our interests to play with the same ball for a while. We may not get to 'control it' as you say, but will look after it carefully and might just add to its value.

The present vote is for you to surrender your independence to a soviet style Europe, the fact is the EU is about to break up into something totally different (probably a trading block but who knows) but this is something else the Nats have no plan for.
The pound belongs to the UK as it's system of money (IOUs), if Scotland leaves the UK it leaves it's money system and needs to set up its own system that its governments can control. Scotland only 'owns' the pound as part of the UK and by standing behind the IOUs under one government. That is how money works for 'independent' countries. The fact that all the clever people who want independence cannot draw up a credible plan for such an event speaks for itself. As I said earlier, the present Independence plan is more like a religion then reality.