Never said it was unique to us M'Lord
Yes or no. Scottish residents only please
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Never said it was unique to us M'Lord
I think I see a point in your post after reading it several times Den, but I don't see where it takes the independence debate. Do you imagine the SNP will rewrite the Countryside and Wildlife Acts? Will it be a priority I wonder?
Your assumption is correct, as is normal with George Monbiot, he has shaped(old...April) news to meet his own odd agenda. Again it has no bearing on the independence debate, it being EU subsidy through the CAP; it is indeed a(nother) piece of misinformation...a Monbiot speciality.
Can you give me examples of flooding caused by burning/'cutting(?) please? Burning is an essential part of heather moor management...it has been practised since the 14th century....rather before grouse shooting.
Interesting though your analogies may be, there are significant differences between grouse and pheasants. Pheasants are usually, but not always bred for shooting on low ground. Grouse are a natural harvest, which you attempt to maximise by managing the environment for their benefit. Even the RSPB now recognise that what benefits grouse also benefits everything else. They are found on heather moorland, an asset of which the UK is lucky enough to posess a significant part of the european total. Presumably why the EU is keen to assist in its upkeep by means of subsidy.
Downton Abbey is fiction....a bit like the SNP White Paper!
Sadly your arguments appear to be less and less about what is good for Scotland, and more and more a promotion of your own political views. You may think they are what Scotland needs. I don't. And after the failure of those policies at Westminster in the Blair/Brown/Balls era I appear to be right.
Your assumption is correct, as is normal with George Monbiot, he has shaped(old...April) news to meet his own odd agenda. Again it has no bearing on the independence debate, it being EU subsidy through the CAP; it is indeed a(nother) piece of misinformation...a Monbiot speciality.
Can you give me examples of flooding caused by burning/'cutting(?) please? Burning is an essential part of heather moor management...it has been practised since the 14th century....rather before grouse shooting.
Interesting though your analogies may be, there are significant differences between grouse and pheasants. Pheasants are usually, but not always bred for shooting on low ground. Grouse are a natural harvest, which you attempt to maximise by managing the environment for their benefit. Even the RSPB now recognise that what benefits grouse also benefits everything else. They are found on heather moorland, an asset of which the UK is lucky enough to posess a significant part of the european total. Presumably why the EU is keen to assist in its upkeep by means of subsidy.
Downton Abbey is fiction....a bit like the SNP White Paper!
Sadly your arguments appear to be less and less about what is good for Scotland, and more and more a promotion of your own political views. You may think they are what Scotland needs. I don't. And after the failure of those policies at Westminster in the Blair/Brown/Balls era I appear to be right.
It strikes me that the reasons for staying or going are mainly mercenary for both sides. There is little mention of how socially divisive the result will be. There is little mention of the common bonds of history, family and culture that have developed over the last few hundred years.
I have followed the debate with a fair amount of interest because of my family and friends connections with Scotland (all of whom are firmly in the NO camp)
The majority of the arguments on here seem to be based purely on what it will cost each individual according to which side they take. If this is the attitude of the majority of Scots regardless of which way they intend to vote then I now hope the vote is firmly for independence.
I have followed the debate with a fair amount of interest because of my family and friends connections with Scotland (all of whom are firmly in the NO camp)
The majority of the arguments on here seem to be based purely on what it will cost each individual according to which side they take. If this is the attitude of the majority of Scots regardless of which way they intend to vote then I now hope the vote is firmly for independence.
It is a pity that so much of the argument or discussion orientates around how much better off folk will be or not be, as you say there are bigger things at stake than £1200 per year per head or whatever is quoted. The discussion would be better served by coming above that and looking at the bigger issues and the longer term.
In 20 years time no one will remember what they did with the apparent £x that whichever side says they will get but they will be very aware what country they live in and how good a place to live it is.
But I suspect it wont rise to that. On both sides, the argument will stay where it is
Fatal, I have noticed that it is MOSTLY the no supporters who are the ones concerned with their own finances and wealth.
Most of the Yes supporters I have heard, fully realise that they will pay in the short term, and the country will not turn into a land of wine and roses for a long time.
Having independence will make relationships between Scotland and England BETTER as we cant use the 'excuse' of holding westminster responsible for anything anymore.
Gerry, Maybe I should have trimmed the section I cut/pasted. I was making the point that whilst we argue on and on about the 'have nothings' sponging what they can from the state, and working out how to remove any speck of dignity they have left, the well-off in this country (I mean the UK), get richer and quietly subsidised, regardless of whether its from westminster or europe.
This is what I, and many others hope will be addressed in a smaller, more responsible country.
The burning and grouse metamorphosis argument I will leave to you Gameys.
Most of the Yes supporters I have heard, fully realise that they will pay in the short term, and the country will not turn into a land of wine and roses for a long time.
Having independence will make relationships between Scotland and England BETTER as we cant use the 'excuse' of holding westminster responsible for anything anymore.
Gerry, Maybe I should have trimmed the section I cut/pasted. I was making the point that whilst we argue on and on about the 'have nothings' sponging what they can from the state, and working out how to remove any speck of dignity they have left, the well-off in this country (I mean the UK), get richer and quietly subsidised, regardless of whether its from westminster or europe.
This is what I, and many others hope will be addressed in a smaller, more responsible country.
The burning and grouse metamorphosis argument I will leave to you Gameys.
Mr K
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Dennis: Do you think Scottish independence will make the dualling of the A1 between Morpeth and Edinburgh more or less likely?........or will Newcastle be regarded as some sort of Northern outpost of a shrinking empire...?
Right, on another note, what happens to Scottish service personnel in the UK forces ?
My lads registered up here so gets a vote, but is at Hereford, will he effectively vote himself out of a job ?
He hasn't taken much interest in what's been happening at home as he's away out of the country (the UK) most of the time.
My lads registered up here so gets a vote, but is at Hereford, will he effectively vote himself out of a job ?
He hasn't taken much interest in what's been happening at home as he's away out of the country (the UK) most of the time.
Dennis: Do you think Scottish independence will make the dualling of the A1 between Morpeth and Edinburgh more or less likely?........or will Newcastle be regarded as some sort of Northern outpost of a shrinking empire...?
I'll have a word wi wee Eck. The Parliament is only 15 miles as the crow flies from my house so I'll send a pigeon instead.
Edit: Ive just had a reply. He says, once he has managed to get a decent dual carriageway north of Perth, he will give it consideration. But just as far as the border toll booth.
Chris ... while your here. There are myths up here, that roads exist 'down south' with three lanes and more. Personally, I dont believe them, but you might know.
newboy
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wee Eck doesn't want independence... He wants a nice mid 40s% in favour
Then he can weedle even more money form those southern aggressors....
but don't tell the Nats that... they would scream!
Then he can weedle even more money form those southern aggressors....
but don't tell the Nats that... they would scream!
I think he'll join the free Scottish army of Scotland ?
Will the new Scotland be a republic ?
It could be if the people of an independent Scotland want it to be. Of course, another referendum would have to be held.
Might save us some dosh as we will still have to contribute to Her Maj's wages and upkeep. Unlike the House of Lords, one of the many things which we will not have to pay for anymore.
I assume the Scottish lords at Westminster will resign their positions.
Deleted account 190920001
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That's a fair question and I don't know the answer.
Their affiliated parties would not exist in an independent Scotland so maybe or stay with the rUK.
Scottish labour, conservatives and lib dem are not pure parties but just a branch of the Westminster main parties. I cant see how that could continue in independence. They would have to completely separate so have no ties with Westminster or the house of Lords.
Just thinking out loud but I honestly have no idea of what they will do. I don't care either to be honest. They shouldn't exist at all anymore.
Toddy
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Toddy, I can't believe it, you've finally managed to write some words of your own. Te hee, what an insight into the debate on independance, good effort.
Plan b..c..d.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VFtfs_CFx28" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Now... I dont see any problems with this. It seems fair for all.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VFtfs_CFx28" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Now... I dont see any problems with this. It seems fair for all.
Why is Salmond so keen on having the pound when just a few years ago he was extolling the benefits to Scotland of being in the EU and using the Euro?
Why does he want independence yet have a foreign country setting the interest rates be it England or the EU?
Or is it just Independence Light, then if the economy doesn't work out to everyones expectations the nationalists can still blame England for all the woes of Scotland.
Why does he want independence yet have a foreign country setting the interest rates be it England or the EU?
Or is it just Independence Light, then if the economy doesn't work out to everyones expectations the nationalists can still blame England for all the woes of Scotland.
A list of really important people who dont want us to leave.
William Dalrymple, Eddie Izzard, Sir Patrick Stewart, Sir Mick Jagger, Jenny Agutter, Sir Ben Ainslie, Kriss Akabusi, Roger Allam, Kirstie Allsop, Alexander Armstrong, Sir David Attenborough, Steve Backley, Baroness Joan Bakewell, Frances Barber, Andy Barrow, John Barrowman, Mike Batt, Glen Baxter, David Aaronovitch, Helena Bonham-Carter, Stanley Baxter, Martin Bayfield, Mary Beard, Sarah Beeny, Anthony Beevor, Angelica Bell,Dickie Bird, Cilla Black, Graeme Black, Roger Black, Malorie Blackman, Ranjit Bolt, Alain de Botton, William Boyd, Tracey Brabin, Lord Melvyn Bragg, Jo Brand, Gyles Brandreth, Rob Brydon, Louisa Buck, Simon Callow, Will Carling, Paul Cartledge, Guy Chambers, Nick Cohen, Michelle Collins, Colonel Tim Collins, Olivia Colman, Charlie Condou, Susannah Constantine, Steve Coogan, Dominic Cooper, Ronnie Corbett, Simon Cowell, Jason Cowley, Sara Cox, Amanda Craig, Steve Cram, Richard Curtis, Tom Daley, Richard Dawkins, Dame Judi Dench, Jeremy Deller, Lord Michael Dobbs, Jimmy Doherty, Michael Douglas, Simon Easterby, Gareth Edwards, Jonathan Edwards, Tracey Emin, Sebastian Faulks, Bryan Ferry, Ranulph Fiennes, Ben Fogle, Sir Bruce Forsyth, Amanda Foreman, Neil Fox, Emma Freud, Bernard Gallacher, Kirsty Gallacher, George Galloway, Sir John Eliot Gardiner, Bamber Gascoigne, David Gilmour, Harvey Goldsmith, David Goodhart, Lachlan Goudie, David Gower, AC Grayling, Will Greenwood, Tamsin Greig, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, Lord Charles Guthrie, Haydn Gwynne, Maggi Hambling, Mehdi Hasan, Sir Max Hastings, Peter Hennessy, James Holland, Tom Holland, Tom Hollander, Gloria Hunniford, Conn Iggledun, John Illsley, Brendan Ingle, Betty Jackson, Sir Mike Jackson, Howard Jacobson, Baroness PD James, Griff Rhys Jones, Terry Jones, Christopher Kane, Sir Anish Kapoor, Ross Kemp, Paul Kenny, Jemima Khan, India Knight, Martha Lane Fox, Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Tory Lawrence, Kathy Lette, Rod Liddle, Louise Linton, John Lloyd (the journalist), John Lloyd ( the producer), Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, Gabby Logan, Kenny Logan, Sarah Lucas, Dame Vera Lynn, James May, Margaret MacMillan, Stephen Mangan, Davina McCall, Sir Ian McGeechan, Heather McGregor, Andy McNab, John Michie, David Mitchell, Lord John Monks, Lewis Moody, Michael Morpurgo, Bill Morris, David Morrissey, Philip Mould, Al Murray, Neil Stuke, Sir Paul Nurse, Andy Nyman, Peter Oborne, Sir Michael Parkinson, Fiona Phillips, Andy Puddicombe, Lord David Puttnam, Anita Rani, Esther Rantzen, Sir Steve Redgrave, Derek Redmond, Pete Reed, Lord Martin Rees, Peter Reid, Baroness Ruth Rendell, Sir Cliff Richard, Hugo Rifkind, Sir Tony Robinson, David Rowntree, Ian Rush, Greg Rutherford, CJ Sansom, June Sarpong, Simon Schama, John Sessions, Sandie Shaw, Helen Skelton, Sir Tim Smit, Dan Snow, Peter Snow, Phil Spencer, David Starkey, Lord Jock Stirrup, Neil Stuke, Sting, Tallia Storm, David Suchet, Alan Sugar, Graeme Swann, Stella Tennant, Daley Thompson, Alan Titchmarsh, James Timpson, Kevin Toolis, Lynne Truss, Gavin Turk, Roger Uttley, David Walliams, Zoë Wanamaker, Robert Webb, Richard Wentworth, Sir Alan West, Dominic West and Kevin Whateley,
I'm truly touched that so many prominent important people are concerned enough to put their names to a letter urging us not to leave.
Sandy Shaw. That bare footed singer who won Eurovision with Puppet on a string. Such a contribution to the world.
Ross Kemp. Fine actor who has influenced generations of folk with his portrayal of murdering, tax dodging, wife beating small time gangsters.
Sara Cox, who selflessly plays music for the whole country. Working so hard in this backbreaking industry. (would still shag the little tits off her though)
Gyles Brandreth. Top buffoon who has worn his fingers to the bone supporting the Scottish wool industry by knitting jumpers.
Tracey Emin. World renowned artist. Tirelessly toiling to provide installations of intricate beauty. A real asset to UK culture.
Sting. Knows everything about poor hungry native people from deprived communities.
Tom Daley. Helping UK industry by repeatedly jumping into water without making a splash.
Betty Jackson. How would the world cope without your porcelain 'Radiance' tea saucer design.
Most of these people dont have the luxury of a real job. Busy folk who, even though they are really busy wondering who's designer dress they are going to wear to the awards ceremonies, still are concerned enough to think of the plight of the Scots and their foolhardiness.
I feel, in the light of this, I should reconsider my options. Imagine not having Cliff Richard as a countryman. Or Jenny Agutter being a foreigner.
We will be so alone in this big world.
William Dalrymple, Eddie Izzard, Sir Patrick Stewart, Sir Mick Jagger, Jenny Agutter, Sir Ben Ainslie, Kriss Akabusi, Roger Allam, Kirstie Allsop, Alexander Armstrong, Sir David Attenborough, Steve Backley, Baroness Joan Bakewell, Frances Barber, Andy Barrow, John Barrowman, Mike Batt, Glen Baxter, David Aaronovitch, Helena Bonham-Carter, Stanley Baxter, Martin Bayfield, Mary Beard, Sarah Beeny, Anthony Beevor, Angelica Bell,Dickie Bird, Cilla Black, Graeme Black, Roger Black, Malorie Blackman, Ranjit Bolt, Alain de Botton, William Boyd, Tracey Brabin, Lord Melvyn Bragg, Jo Brand, Gyles Brandreth, Rob Brydon, Louisa Buck, Simon Callow, Will Carling, Paul Cartledge, Guy Chambers, Nick Cohen, Michelle Collins, Colonel Tim Collins, Olivia Colman, Charlie Condou, Susannah Constantine, Steve Coogan, Dominic Cooper, Ronnie Corbett, Simon Cowell, Jason Cowley, Sara Cox, Amanda Craig, Steve Cram, Richard Curtis, Tom Daley, Richard Dawkins, Dame Judi Dench, Jeremy Deller, Lord Michael Dobbs, Jimmy Doherty, Michael Douglas, Simon Easterby, Gareth Edwards, Jonathan Edwards, Tracey Emin, Sebastian Faulks, Bryan Ferry, Ranulph Fiennes, Ben Fogle, Sir Bruce Forsyth, Amanda Foreman, Neil Fox, Emma Freud, Bernard Gallacher, Kirsty Gallacher, George Galloway, Sir John Eliot Gardiner, Bamber Gascoigne, David Gilmour, Harvey Goldsmith, David Goodhart, Lachlan Goudie, David Gower, AC Grayling, Will Greenwood, Tamsin Greig, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, Lord Charles Guthrie, Haydn Gwynne, Maggi Hambling, Mehdi Hasan, Sir Max Hastings, Peter Hennessy, James Holland, Tom Holland, Tom Hollander, Gloria Hunniford, Conn Iggledun, John Illsley, Brendan Ingle, Betty Jackson, Sir Mike Jackson, Howard Jacobson, Baroness PD James, Griff Rhys Jones, Terry Jones, Christopher Kane, Sir Anish Kapoor, Ross Kemp, Paul Kenny, Jemima Khan, India Knight, Martha Lane Fox, Baroness Doreen Lawrence, Tory Lawrence, Kathy Lette, Rod Liddle, Louise Linton, John Lloyd (the journalist), John Lloyd ( the producer), Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, Gabby Logan, Kenny Logan, Sarah Lucas, Dame Vera Lynn, James May, Margaret MacMillan, Stephen Mangan, Davina McCall, Sir Ian McGeechan, Heather McGregor, Andy McNab, John Michie, David Mitchell, Lord John Monks, Lewis Moody, Michael Morpurgo, Bill Morris, David Morrissey, Philip Mould, Al Murray, Neil Stuke, Sir Paul Nurse, Andy Nyman, Peter Oborne, Sir Michael Parkinson, Fiona Phillips, Andy Puddicombe, Lord David Puttnam, Anita Rani, Esther Rantzen, Sir Steve Redgrave, Derek Redmond, Pete Reed, Lord Martin Rees, Peter Reid, Baroness Ruth Rendell, Sir Cliff Richard, Hugo Rifkind, Sir Tony Robinson, David Rowntree, Ian Rush, Greg Rutherford, CJ Sansom, June Sarpong, Simon Schama, John Sessions, Sandie Shaw, Helen Skelton, Sir Tim Smit, Dan Snow, Peter Snow, Phil Spencer, David Starkey, Lord Jock Stirrup, Neil Stuke, Sting, Tallia Storm, David Suchet, Alan Sugar, Graeme Swann, Stella Tennant, Daley Thompson, Alan Titchmarsh, James Timpson, Kevin Toolis, Lynne Truss, Gavin Turk, Roger Uttley, David Walliams, Zoë Wanamaker, Robert Webb, Richard Wentworth, Sir Alan West, Dominic West and Kevin Whateley,
I'm truly touched that so many prominent important people are concerned enough to put their names to a letter urging us not to leave.
Sandy Shaw. That bare footed singer who won Eurovision with Puppet on a string. Such a contribution to the world.
Ross Kemp. Fine actor who has influenced generations of folk with his portrayal of murdering, tax dodging, wife beating small time gangsters.
Sara Cox, who selflessly plays music for the whole country. Working so hard in this backbreaking industry. (would still shag the little tits off her though)
Gyles Brandreth. Top buffoon who has worn his fingers to the bone supporting the Scottish wool industry by knitting jumpers.
Tracey Emin. World renowned artist. Tirelessly toiling to provide installations of intricate beauty. A real asset to UK culture.
Sting. Knows everything about poor hungry native people from deprived communities.
Tom Daley. Helping UK industry by repeatedly jumping into water without making a splash.
Betty Jackson. How would the world cope without your porcelain 'Radiance' tea saucer design.
Most of these people dont have the luxury of a real job. Busy folk who, even though they are really busy wondering who's designer dress they are going to wear to the awards ceremonies, still are concerned enough to think of the plight of the Scots and their foolhardiness.
I feel, in the light of this, I should reconsider my options. Imagine not having Cliff Richard as a countryman. Or Jenny Agutter being a foreigner.
We will be so alone in this big world.
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