Alex must have had some coaching after the previous outing, he definitely won tonight, Darling will be getting an unwelcome phone call from his Conservative mates.
Yes or no. Scottish residents only please
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Alex must have had some coaching after the previous outing, he definitely won tonight, Darling will be getting an unwelcome phone call from his Conservative mates.
I've been at the footy tonight, but I hope Salmond has won.
VOTE YES FFS ..... Pleeeeeeease.....
VOTE YES FFS ..... Pleeeeeeease.....
newboy
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Is it over yet - do we start the haggling ?
I've been at the footy tonight, but I hope Salmond has won.
VOTE YES FFS ..... Pleeeeeeease.....
I really don't understand why you come on this thread to post your anti Scottish vitriol. The thread title says it all keep your nose out and go boil yer heid as my wife would say.
I have to say I wish all you Scots the best of luck deciphering that debate and coming out with a view either way.
I thought I'd sit and watch it because it is important for the UK but all I got was the usual spectacle of 2 accomplished and heavyweight politicians punching their way through a 6 round contest without actually debating anything. Both majored on the points they knew they could win, avoided any uncomfortable questions and just shouted over each other so it was quite difficult to actually know which is the best direction.
Salmond won on points I think as he seemed a bit more passionate but I have to say I'm none the wiser on what's best for Scotland and the UK.
Good luck at the ballot box.
I thought I'd sit and watch it because it is important for the UK but all I got was the usual spectacle of 2 accomplished and heavyweight politicians punching their way through a 6 round contest without actually debating anything. Both majored on the points they knew they could win, avoided any uncomfortable questions and just shouted over each other so it was quite difficult to actually know which is the best direction.
Salmond won on points I think as he seemed a bit more passionate but I have to say I'm none the wiser on what's best for Scotland and the UK.
Good luck at the ballot box.
i watched it for the same reason but got frustrated with it as Salmond didn't seem to want to let Darling speak without hectoring him which seemed to force Darling into the same tactic
so i eventually turned it off. according to Salmond a yes vote is going to allow him to create a Utopia for the Scots. with none of the ills the rest of the UK has. be interesting to see
that happen but i suspect reality would raise it's head and modify these expectations.
like Chris, i am none the wiser after the debate and wish you Scots. good luck with it and hope you get what turns out to be best.
I think that is the problem Chris, either way it's a leap of faith, stick with the London centric UK that seems to be leading the world to recovery but has undoubtedly treated Scotland unfairly, along with all the other regions and countries over many decades, or go with the dreams of the proponents of quasi independence under the thumb of Brussels.
Another issue is that people like Schtum who appears to have a strong social conscience believe that Scotland, independent within the EU, would become a socially fairer country. He may be correct but I suspect that the reduction in disparity between the richest and the poorest in the population would be a result of wealthy Scots and other Scottish residents emulating the wealthy French and departing for more attractive shores along with the majority of their wealth and tax bawbees. London is now said to be the fifth biggest French city in terms of population. Unilateral increases in taxation on the wealthy, direct or indirect, will only result in the same situation created by Wilson/Callaghan in the 1970's when high tax pushed the wealthy away. Subsequent tax reductions saw receipts to the exchequer increase. People haven't changed, the result would be the same.
Somebody cleverer than I will need to find a better way to engineer a less disparate society. Unfortunately our technological world seems to favour the wealthy.
I was trying (believe it or not .. its true) to look at the debate as an undecided, and thought the exact opposite.
Darling spoke over most of what Salmond was saying, and did a lot of angry pointing. Salmond did his fair share of interrupting though.
When Salmond was asking him to name the job creating powers coming to Scotland, Darling was absolutely pathetic. Shambling and rambling . Ive not seen a politician look so rattled for a while. For a minute I thought he was going to stick his fingers in his ears and start humming to himself. He just ranted-on incoherently.
Darling is the wrong person to have leading the Better together campaign. He is a Labour person having to defend tory policies. If Cameron had any balls, he would have been standing at the podium.
I thought Eck should have stayed behind the podium though. All this 'pally' walking around was obviously deliberately planned and not needed.
Rigormortis
Registered user
I too tried to watch the debate hoping for some answers as to what would be best for Scotland and its people but I've learned nothing except that neither of these two men should be involved in discussing Scotland's future.
I've spent 30 + years in Scotland and still have 5 children living there today so to me the outcome of the referendum is important and I was hoping that for once this important moment in Scotland's history would rise above party politics but I was wrong. I was in favour of a yes vote, hoping for a new dawn in Scottish politics but sadly I've come to the conclusion that an independent Scotland would still be miss-managed by the same people making a hash of it today. Nationalism is a dangerous thing in politics so the status quo, i.e. a strong devolved scottish parliament with Westminster providing a safety net against extremism is what I'm hoping for.
I've spent 30 + years in Scotland and still have 5 children living there today so to me the outcome of the referendum is important and I was hoping that for once this important moment in Scotland's history would rise above party politics but I was wrong. I was in favour of a yes vote, hoping for a new dawn in Scottish politics but sadly I've come to the conclusion that an independent Scotland would still be miss-managed by the same people making a hash of it today. Nationalism is a dangerous thing in politics so the status quo, i.e. a strong devolved scottish parliament with Westminster providing a safety net against extremism is what I'm hoping for.
I'm not anti Scottish, you all seem to want to fuck off from the union so hey......
Just fuck off... Seems fair enough to me .
If its all the same with you, England and the rest of the union has a vested, and remaining interest fiscally and otherwise when you've gone, so I'll keep an interest until its all sorted out.
You wife boils your head ??? Weird ..
Their is a subtle difference between a people wanting their country to be independent and holding a peaceful referendum, and people wanting to 'fuck off' Mr Black.
Ive not re-read the whole thread to find out if any of the yes supporters have used terms like that. I'm sure you will inform me if I or anyone else has done so. We all use strong language when pressed, but you use it constantly without any provocation.
Ive not re-read the whole thread to find out if any of the yes supporters have used terms like that. I'm sure you will inform me if I or anyone else has done so. We all use strong language when pressed, but you use it constantly without any provocation.
AberdeenAngus
Registered user
Latest poll gives 43% Yes, 57% No.
The gap is closing.........this could frickin well happen.
Lets hope for pishy weather on the night.
The gap is closing.........this could frickin well happen.
Lets hope for pishy weather on the night.
Latest poll gives 43% Yes, 57% No.
The gap is closing.........this could frickin well happen.
Lets hope for pishy weather on the night.
Agreed ...... I'm pro Indy for you all..... Gods speed!
I'm not anti Scottish, you all seem to want to fuck off from the union so hey......
Just fuck off... Seems fair enough to me .
If its all the same with you, England and the rest of the union has a vested, and remaining interest fiscally and otherwise when you've gone, so I'll keep an interest until its all sorted out.
You wife boils your head ??? Weird ..
Dennis, remind yourself that he's a Mank. Half of their vocabulary is made up of sweary words and the other half is made up of all the different names for drugs.
I've been there once.......and therefore like the Captain, I have a balanced view.
D.
It's Manc !
Everyone should be able to share their feelings about this referendum.
My personal feelings are that I see it as a betrayal by Scotland, sorry but that's how I feel and I'm being honest. So yeah I'm a bit pissed off with the whole process. When I think of all the wars fought together under the union flag, and our forefathers sacrifices most recently, and going back generations. Something's tasting really bad about the whole thing.
Rightly or wrongly that's how I feel.
I went to Manchester once for a course at the GMB College, it was surrounded by drug addled idiots and we were warned not to leave the grounds after hours. So Mr Blacks comments make a lot of sense.
Some bad places in Manchester , Birmingham , Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow, etc etc ....
Also plenty of good folk...
I have watched all the Referendum 'debates' (there is another on tonight . . God help us), I have also read most of the White Paper.
So far I haven't seen much of a debate. The most useful & measured comment has come from people who will be impacted by the result and are not Politicians (i.e. Business People, Journalists, Members of the public).
Last night's 'Debate' was nothing but insulting to the Scottish population; no debate just a shouting match aimed at stirring up their respective committed supporters, sprinkled with cheap tricks.
Alex Salmond's statement that "Alistair has just admitted that Scotland can use the Pound - this is the most significant outcome of the debate so far" was just ridiculous. Of course Scotland can use the Pound, its an internationally-traded currency. The point is, do you really want to base the future of your country on a bought-in currency over which you have no control?
I would like to see a proper debate/explanation of the options. If Scotland buys-in the pound - what does it pay for it with?? (IOUs to the Bank of England ??, signing away oil revenues??).
Alistair Darling can't say what additional powers will be devolved to Scotland; the three main Westminster parties don't agree and he is a Labour Politician who isn't in power. That is an issue that will have to be debated with whichever party(ies) is in power in Westminster after the 2015 elections.
I just wonder what level of IQ these 'debates' are aimed at
.
I spent most of my working life in the IT Industry, developing and implementing large £multi-million projects. I never did anything without a fully worked-out, discussed and agreed plan. Yet here we are being asked to vote on an extremely important, no going back, issue with nothing but wishful thinking and jingoistic rhetoric from those who are proposing it.
An Independent Scotland is an attractive proposition and I have every confidence that the Scottish People could make a success of it - and I say that as an Englishman who thinks of himself an a European. Unfortunately I have no faith in the Third-Division Politicians who are trying to push this through.
Unlike a 'Yes' vote, there is nothing to stop another Independence attempt in the future. I'm hoping that the lessons learned from this debacle will be learned and next time we (you, I'm getting old) will have a campaign that is based on a proper plan with an agreed transition plan with cross-party support from Westminster. After all, Westminster will be asked to continue to provide facilities and services for the 10 years or so it will take the newly Independent Scotland to construct its own infrastructure, recruit and train the people and develop the systems to support the functions.
Interesting times ahead (whatever the outcome on 18th Sept).
Bob.
So far I haven't seen much of a debate. The most useful & measured comment has come from people who will be impacted by the result and are not Politicians (i.e. Business People, Journalists, Members of the public).
Last night's 'Debate' was nothing but insulting to the Scottish population; no debate just a shouting match aimed at stirring up their respective committed supporters, sprinkled with cheap tricks.
Alex Salmond's statement that "Alistair has just admitted that Scotland can use the Pound - this is the most significant outcome of the debate so far" was just ridiculous. Of course Scotland can use the Pound, its an internationally-traded currency. The point is, do you really want to base the future of your country on a bought-in currency over which you have no control?
I would like to see a proper debate/explanation of the options. If Scotland buys-in the pound - what does it pay for it with?? (IOUs to the Bank of England ??, signing away oil revenues??).
Alistair Darling can't say what additional powers will be devolved to Scotland; the three main Westminster parties don't agree and he is a Labour Politician who isn't in power. That is an issue that will have to be debated with whichever party(ies) is in power in Westminster after the 2015 elections.
I just wonder what level of IQ these 'debates' are aimed at
.I spent most of my working life in the IT Industry, developing and implementing large £multi-million projects. I never did anything without a fully worked-out, discussed and agreed plan. Yet here we are being asked to vote on an extremely important, no going back, issue with nothing but wishful thinking and jingoistic rhetoric from those who are proposing it.
An Independent Scotland is an attractive proposition and I have every confidence that the Scottish People could make a success of it - and I say that as an Englishman who thinks of himself an a European. Unfortunately I have no faith in the Third-Division Politicians who are trying to push this through.
Unlike a 'Yes' vote, there is nothing to stop another Independence attempt in the future. I'm hoping that the lessons learned from this debacle will be learned and next time we (you, I'm getting old) will have a campaign that is based on a proper plan with an agreed transition plan with cross-party support from Westminster. After all, Westminster will be asked to continue to provide facilities and services for the 10 years or so it will take the newly Independent Scotland to construct its own infrastructure, recruit and train the people and develop the systems to support the functions.
Interesting times ahead (whatever the outcome on 18th Sept).
Bob.
I'm sorry that this thread has developed the way it has but it was inevitable.
F'ing and blinding takes us nowhere.
Knowing Den as I do I am confident that he honestly thinks independence is best for Scotland for the most genuine of reasons. He is not stupid.
I don't know Schtum, but I have generally found that I agree with his posts on other matters; again I am confident that he feels independence is the best way forward for Scotland and all of us in it.
However, what is on offer is not independence. How can it be when the proposal and ambition is for another sovereign country to dictate for example, interest rates, that most essential tool of economic governance? The independence proposal is a dishonest one. Scotland will not be independent at all. The only way that can happen is with its own currency and economic/fiscal policy and mandate. Even eck knows he couldn't carry a majority on that one, so he is settling for some sort of independence lite....a dishonest ruse. The idea of shared currency is a failure...we can see that every day with the euro and its crippling effect on euroland economies; even Germany is beginning to falter, and France is a few steps from basket case. Whether you like it or not, the UK economy is outperforming the rest of Europe.
I keep being told that we are not voting for Alec Salmond. But of course we are. He will be the one to steer Scotland into independence. I do not think that he and his government are the right people to deliver this ambition, and will do the economy and people of Scotland enormous harm if allowed to go ahead. The dishonesty shown in his sham of a white paper is demonstration enough. A few days to go and they still wont tell us how much its going to cost, and how we can pay for it. His cynical use of the NHS as a election ploy when he's already in charge of it is another demonstration of the dishonesty on which his campaign is based. There is duplicity in virtually everything he says; on NATO, on the EU, on currency, on costs, etc etc. His policies blow with the wind.
So for reasons as genuine and heartfelt as Den and Schtum I am desperately keen that the independence proposal as it is fails. The romance and sentiment of independence is inescapable; of course it is. But this shower of incompetents are not the ones to take us down this road, and I don't see anyone else who could either. So we will be better together.
I imagine that those who have said yes will not change their minds any more than those who have said no. The don't knows have it in their hands; I just hope they think long and hard about this leap of faith following a squad who have demonstrated time and again their unsuitability to lead us down this one-way street....there will be no going back.
F'ing and blinding takes us nowhere.
Knowing Den as I do I am confident that he honestly thinks independence is best for Scotland for the most genuine of reasons. He is not stupid.
I don't know Schtum, but I have generally found that I agree with his posts on other matters; again I am confident that he feels independence is the best way forward for Scotland and all of us in it.
However, what is on offer is not independence. How can it be when the proposal and ambition is for another sovereign country to dictate for example, interest rates, that most essential tool of economic governance? The independence proposal is a dishonest one. Scotland will not be independent at all. The only way that can happen is with its own currency and economic/fiscal policy and mandate. Even eck knows he couldn't carry a majority on that one, so he is settling for some sort of independence lite....a dishonest ruse. The idea of shared currency is a failure...we can see that every day with the euro and its crippling effect on euroland economies; even Germany is beginning to falter, and France is a few steps from basket case. Whether you like it or not, the UK economy is outperforming the rest of Europe.
I keep being told that we are not voting for Alec Salmond. But of course we are. He will be the one to steer Scotland into independence. I do not think that he and his government are the right people to deliver this ambition, and will do the economy and people of Scotland enormous harm if allowed to go ahead. The dishonesty shown in his sham of a white paper is demonstration enough. A few days to go and they still wont tell us how much its going to cost, and how we can pay for it. His cynical use of the NHS as a election ploy when he's already in charge of it is another demonstration of the dishonesty on which his campaign is based. There is duplicity in virtually everything he says; on NATO, on the EU, on currency, on costs, etc etc. His policies blow with the wind.
So for reasons as genuine and heartfelt as Den and Schtum I am desperately keen that the independence proposal as it is fails. The romance and sentiment of independence is inescapable; of course it is. But this shower of incompetents are not the ones to take us down this road, and I don't see anyone else who could either. So we will be better together.
I imagine that those who have said yes will not change their minds any more than those who have said no. The don't knows have it in their hands; I just hope they think long and hard about this leap of faith following a squad who have demonstrated time and again their unsuitability to lead us down this one-way street....there will be no going back.
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