Yes or no. Scottish residents only please

[Posh Pete]

Interesting how the tone has changed here over the months. Initially, there was derision at the very idea of an independent Scotland. That seems to have morphed into scepticism as to how we might survive when there is a YES vote. As with the polls, so with the forum. Likewise, we have the UK parties scrabbling around, offering devo max jam tomorrow as if they think we have zips up the back of our heads up here.

And yet again, members of the forum from south of the border seem totally ignorant of the fact that Scotland already possesses many attributes of an independent state including our own territorial waters which impact on fishing, oil and mineral rights etc.

As regards Darien, it is not exactly a good argument for a unionist to deploy. Darien failed as much because of the hostility of the English (the Alien Act etc) as that of the Spanish.

For me, the whole issue was summed up in a vox pop in a Scottish pub. Drinker, over his pint: "It's all the fault of you English. You keep on voting Tory!"

After a week Thursday, a YES vote will ensure that we will only get Tory policies if WE vote for them. Simples!

 

[markharnett]

Yes, but you vote for a political party and get politicians....doesn't matter which way they lean in my opinion, they all get someone to advise them what colour tie to wear!

 

[polecat]

For me, the whole issue was summed up in a vox pop in a Scottish pub. Drinker, over his pint: "It's all the fault of you English. You keep on voting Tory!"

Amnesia is a great thing. We did really well after so many years of a labour government didn't we?

 

[Posh Pete]

Amnesia is a great thing. We did really well after so many years of a labour government didn't we?

Thanks. I think that made my point (and that of the pub drinker) perfectly!

 

[Wreford Miles]

One perception from all this is to say that c2.5 million people within a team of c60 million people think what's best for them is all that counts and they get very defensive should people from the majority offer an opinion or ask a question that does not fit with their views...

I expect those wiser than me could explain why that's not a great place to potentially start a new future from. I'd have thought it would be much better to involve the wider team and have everyone buy into the dream.

Of course that would have meant the journey to a YES would have been longer but the start would be so much better and have a much higher chance and shorter journey to success.

Tell me why a YES will be good for me, bring me and others on the journey? - I'm listening

 

[Blackal]

My understanding is that oil revenues are currently allocated to an economic entity called the UK Continental Shelf. Therefore the revenues are currently (and I stress the word currently) an asset of the UK.

It should be clear from my post that I state that this would obviously transfer to Scotland should Independence be voted for.

Again...I did not mean to offend, I am just putting my views and opinion across as I find this a fascinating subject, and hope that whatever happens it works out for all those that are directly affected by it.

That wasn't clear to me - when I read this: "I know you may disagree with me, but I feel that the North Sea oil is no more Scottish than the NHS is Welsh"

But - You have clarified it, and there was no offence taken

Al

 

[markharnett]

That wasn't clear to me - when I read this: "I know you may disagree with me, but I feel that the North Sea oil is no more Scottish than the NHS is Welsh"

But - You have clarified it, and there was no offence taken

Al

Thanks Al....and apologies if I was not particularly clear. My meaning was that I don't really regard myself as an Englishman/Welshman (yes, there is a little bit of that in me somewhere!)....I regard myself as British, and we are all on this Island together. That is not to say that I don't think Scotland should get it's independence. I try not to worry too much about what may or may not happen, as I really have very little control over it.

I suspect a Labour government may get in to power next year, and whether I agree with that or not, there is very little my one little vote will do to stop that. I know that if everyone thought like that and didn't vote then we would be in all sorts of mess, which is why I will put my vote in....but I will not worry about the outcome and what that means to me, because it will happen to me anyway, regardless of how much I don't want it to!

Anyway, as I have said before, I really hope that whatever happens it turns out for the best for everyone.....and that if Scotland does get independence I can still come and visit!

 

[polecat]

Thanks. I think that made my point (and that of the pub drinker) perfectly!

Bit confused here. Do you really think you were better off under the last labour government ?

 

[Posh Pete]

Bit confused here. Do you really think you were better off under the last labour government ?

It was the automatic way in which you assumed that in order to be anti Tory, one also had to be pro (New) Labour. As it happens, the last UK Labour government did quite a few things rather well. Minimum wage, devolution,economic growth and rising living standards. I don't blame them for the economic crisis although TBGBs policy of allowing the city and the banks free reign hardly helped.

My point was that Scotland has consistently rejected Tory policies or at least the policies which the current Tory party down south has embraced. Privatisation of the NHS and in education seem to be perfectly acceptable to voters down south. Not up here.

That's not to say that there are no Tories up here. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament has ensured that they still have a presence there but , as the joke goes, there are more Pandas in Embra Zoo than Scottish Tory UKMPs in Parliament. An awful lot of us would rather vote YES than accept another UK Tory government or coalition having any influence over us.

 

[Tim Cullis]

Aberdeen remains a Labour stronghold, and having seen what they do on a social well-being front, I'm quite supportive of Labour in Scotland. In fact if I lived in Scotland I would vote Labour for my local Council.

But transfer yourself to national rather than local government, and England in particular, and Labour is a different beast. After what Gordon Brown did, first to my pension scheme, and then to government borrowing... I'd rather hammer nails through my scrotum than vote Labour.

Thats exactly what some seem to think. They forget Scotland built half the civilized world. They see Scotland as a poor ignorant relative living off their hand-outs. This thread has certainly shown some folk in their true colours. My 'ignore' list is growing rapidly.

I see you thought better of this post and deleted it, unfortunately not before someone else had quoted it. By all means feel free to 'ignore' me and anyone else you whose views you don't agree with, then you will only get to see the lovey messages of support (irrespective of the true views of this thread).

I have six relatives living in Aberdeen, and many close friends. Scotland is a country to which I have great affinity, so I'm sad to see it being riven by this vote.

The actions of proto Nazis such as Siol nan Gaidhea bring disrepute to the 'yes" vote, it's the brown shirts of Ernst Röhm's Sturmabteilung all over again. The independence they desire is akin to isolation, do you really want racist fascists deciding the direction of your country? Let's hope the voting booths will be protected against their thuggery. I don't want my wife's 93-year-old mother intimidated at the polls (especially as I know which way she would vote).

 

[Posh Pete]

The actions of proto Nazis such as Siol nan Gaidhea bring disrepute to the 'yes" vote, it's the brown shirts of Ernst Röhm's Sturmabteilung all over again. The independence they desire is akin to isolation, do you really want racist fascists deciding the direction of your country? Let's hope the voting booths will be protected against their thuggery. I don't want my wife's 93-year-old mother intimidated at the polls (especially as I know which way she would vote).

Not only total rubbish but irresponsible to boot. I have neither seen nor heard tell of any evidence of any form of intimidation around the country. Siol nan ghaideal are virtually non existent and I doubt that they comprise more than a handful across the country. Certainly, a few cyber Nats have exceeded their briefs and at least one Better Together politician got a Prescotting. In other words, exactly the same level of debate as at a General Election. The difference is that large numbers who have not previously been politically engaged have become engaged by the referendum debate.

It is totally irresponsible to spread rumours of intimidation in this manner. If you have evidence for ANY such concerns then contact Police Scotland immediately rather than spread stories on the internet.

 

[Toddy]

Wee message from Quebec

.........

 

[Toddy]

And while I've found some wifi in France

.....

 

[Devon]

As regards Darien, it is not exactly a good argument for a unionist to deploy. Darien failed as much because of the hostility of the English (the Alien Act etc) as that of the Spanish.

Or maybe Darien failed because the Scots were totally unrealistic, didn't plan properly and set off on a half baked adventure without consider the consequences if it all went wrong? Sound familiar?

Quote from my link:
Today, the site of the colony is now called Puerto Escocés, or Port Scotland, located in the Bahia de Caledonia, which is the Bay of Caledonia in English. Despite this, the region is virtually uninhabited owing to its inhospitability and isolation from the more established parts of Panama. A small settlement by the name of Puerto Escocés or Sukunya currently sits on the site of the ex-colony and is connected to the port town of Carreto – found at the mouth of the Rio Carreto – via a coastal road

If the Darian adventure was viable the Spanish or English would have removed the Scots and embarked on the idea themselves. As it is, over 300 years later, the site is still a tiny isolated shit hole. Need I say more?

 

[Devon]

Not only total rubbish but irresponsible to boot. I have neither seen nor heard tell of any evidence of any form of intimidation around the country. Siol nan ghaideal are virtually non existent and I doubt that they comprise more than a handful across the country. Certainly, a few cyber Nats have exceeded their briefs and at least one Better Together politician got a Prescotting. In other words, exactly the same level of debate as at a General Election. The difference is that large numbers who have not previously been politically engaged have become engaged by the referendum debate.

It is totally irresponsible to spread rumours of intimidation in this manner. If you have evidence for ANY such concerns then contact Police Scotland immediately rather than spread stories on the internet.

We will see........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29003017

 

[boatman]

"To make matters worse, the ships sent out to trade for supplies returned with news that all English ships and colonies were forbidden to trade with the Scots by order of the King"

EVEN THEN. !!!!!!!!!! During the Darien Scheme !!!

Better together. That's just a bad joke

 

[Devon]

"To make matters worse, the ships sent out to trade for supplies returned with news that all English ships and colonies were forbidden to trade with the Scots by order of the King"

EVEN THEN. !!!!!!!!!! During the Darien Scheme !!!

Better together. That's just a bad joke

So why didn't the Scots see the writing on the wall? Why would the English risk conflict with Spain or help another country who were going against England? Get Real. If Scotland chooses independence and becomes a foreign country England will again fight tooth and nail to look after Number 1, just as the Scots will try to (and do) grab everything for themselves. Darien was an ill conceived, ill considered, ill planned, ill provisioned disaster the Scots entered into of their own free will. Sound familiar?

 

[busy builder]

With regards to service personnel not getting a vote.....if your registered address is within Scotland, it doesn't matter where you're stationed you get a postal vote.

 

[Posh Pete]

Or maybe Darien failed because the Scots were totally unrealistic, didn't plan properly and set off on a half baked adventure without consider the consequences if it all went wrong? Sound familiar?

Quote from my link:
Today, the site of the colony is now called Puerto Escocés, or Port Scotland, located in the Bahia de Caledonia, which is the Bay of Caledonia in English. Despite this, the region is virtually uninhabited owing to its inhospitability and isolation from the more established parts of Panama. A small settlement by the name of Puerto Escocés or Sukunya currently sits on the site of the ex-colony and is connected to the port town of Carreto – found at the mouth of the Rio Carreto – via a coastal road

If the Darian adventure was viable the Spanish or English would have removed the Scots and embarked on the idea themselves. As it is, over 300 years later, the site is still a tiny isolated shit hole. Need I say more?

Wrong again Andy. You fail to understand the strategic value of Darien which the Americans recognised much later when they snapped up the Panama Canal Company for a song. If the Company of Scotland had succeeded in setting up Darien as an entrepôt with rapid access to the spice trade of the Far East they would have had the 17th century equivalent of our current oil reserves. What really did for Darien was the malevolence of the English Parliament and the obsession of William of Orange with defeating Louis XIV in Europe. In general however, you are correct: when faced with a choice between the interests of Scotland and the perceived interests of England, the London political nexus will always sacrifice Scotland. That's why I will be voting YES next week.

 

[boatman]

No amount of money could make up for the nation's sense of betrayal, however. Many Scots believed that their chance of independence had been deliberately sabotaged by the English, and the resentment this fostered played no small part in the Jacobite rebellions which were to plague the Union.


Small country BOUGHT out by larger country
Bit like a hostile merger and aquisition
The people/general populace had NO say in the matter.
NOW that it looks close enough to be of concern to "the establishment"
We are being promised control of our OWN country back. HAH
FOOLS if we are taken in again. Like when we were told there was ONLY 2 Gallons of oil in the north sea and it would be gone in short order