R1250GS Quickshifter Tutorial

I had a good listen to this and there is something I can’t fathom - sometimes on a down change there is a very significant rise in revs (blip) before they quickly adjust down to the ‘correct’ value for the speed and lower gear. How can one have such a significant rapid increase in revs unless the clutch is disengaged, surely either this or rear wheel would slip.

I assume the quick temporary increase in revs relates to the point where the gear briefly disengages on the way to the lower gear.

For sure the revs increase without the bike lurching forward - which would happen if the gear was engaged and under load.
 
I assume the quick temporary increase in revs relates to the point where the gear briefly disengages on the way to the lower gear.

For sure the revs increase without the bike lurching forward - which would happen if the gear was engaged and under load.

For that to work the bike has to effectively be in a ‘false neutral’ position for a significant period of time if you listen to how long the ‘blip’ is in the video. So you press down on the lever, go into a false neutral, the blipper blips up the revs and then the actuator slots into the next gear down from the ‘false’ neutral position, hmmmmm seems all a bit hit and miss????
 
For that to work the bike has to effectively be in a ‘false neutral’ position for a significant period of time if you listen to how long the ‘blip’ is in the video. So you press down on the lever, go into a false neutral, the blipper blips up the revs and then the actuator slots into the next gear down from the ‘false’ neutral position, hmmmmm seems all a bit hit and miss????

Not listened to the video, but on mine when I change down it is a very short blip before it engages in the lower gear - never missed a gear on any of my GS's
 
I had a good listen to this and there is something I can’t fathom - sometimes on a down change there is a very significant rise in revs (blip) before they quickly adjust down to the ‘correct’ value for the speed and lower gear. How can one have such a significant rapid increase in revs unless the clutch is disengaged, surely either this or rear wheel would slip.

There doesn't seem to be anything unusual in that video to me. When you change to a lower gear it is generally because you are in the process of slowing down, so naturally you get higher revs as you change because the engine has to be spinning faster for the lower gear to match the road speed, but as you are slowing down, and these bikes have a lot of engine braking, the revs immediately fall off with rapidly reducing road speed, until the next downshift. So each downshift on a decelerating bike increases the revs followed by a reduction in revs as the bike slows. This is just the exact reverse of an accelerating bike where each upshift reduces the revs followed by an increase in revs as the bike speeds up. I don't see anything mysterious in this.

Where there is a more noticeable rise in revs on a downshift it probably just means that you have changed down between two gears with a relatively large ratio gap and at a fairly high road speed for the new gear selected.
 
There doesn't seem to be anything unusual in that video to me. When you change to a lower gear it is generally because you are in the process of slowing down, so naturally you get higher revs as you change because the engine has to be spinning faster for the lower gear to match the road speed, but as you are slowing down, and these bikes have a lot of engine braking, the revs immediately fall off with rapidly reducing road speed, until the next downshift. So each downshift on a decelerating bike increases the revs followed by a reduction in revs as the bike slows. This is just exact reverse of an accelerating bike where each upshift reduces the revs followed by an increase in revs as the bike speeds up. I don't see anything mysterious in this.

Where there is a more noticeable rise in revs on a downshift it probably just means that you have changed down between two gears with a relatively large ratio gap and at a fairly high road speed for the new gear selected.

Yeah but to me the ‘blip revs’ appear to rise far higher than the lower gear would require before being forced down to necessary level for the lower gear - if that is the case (it sounds like it to me) then surely there must be a significant ‘neutral’ period or the back torque limiter forcing the clutch to slip?

I just listened carefully again and most of the time I agree, but there are a couple of occasions where the revs just rise too high during the blip - maybe on those occasions he used the clutch and did a manual blip instead?
 
Yeah but to me the ‘blip revs’ appear to rise far higher than the lower gear would require before being forced down to necessary level for the lower gear - if that is the case (it sounds like it to me) then surely there must be a significant ‘neutral’ period or the back torque limiter forcing the clutch to slip?

I just listened carefully again and most of the time I agree, but there are a couple of occasions where the revs just rise too high during the blip - maybe on those occasions he used the clutch and did a manual blip instead?

An interesting subject, and when you have been changing gear on bikes for years, it is quite difficult to analyse exactly how you are doing it, due to it becoming more or less an unconscious automatic activity.

However, thinking about manual downshifts, blipping generally seems to consist of raising the revs a little more than needed, because the engine will rev freely when disconnected from the transmission by operating the clutch, and then judging at what point as the revs start to die back down to re-engage the clutch so the transmission is reconnected at just the right revs to match road speed - at least I think that's how I normally do it. The term blip seems to imply a momentary raising of revs to a higher level than needed, and it is maybe done this way because it is easier than just raising the revs to the exact level needed. Quite satisfying when you get it just right and completely smooth.

However with GSAP the ECU is presumably not blipping as such, but simply trying to raise the revs to just the right level to match road speed for the lower gear, but no more, and that has been my experience with the system - the blips seem more muted than when done manually and don't seem to have the characteristic up and down note of a manual blip - they just seem to go up which sounds more boring, but probably wastes less gas! Maybe this is simply because the clutch is still engaged and as you suggested, the engine is therefore only free to rev up in the gap between moving out of engagement with one gear and into the next.

However, I guess if during a particularly brutal clutchless down change, for example changing to a low gear while at a high road speed for that gear, the reverse torque (from wheel to engine) is enough to operate the slipper clutch, and if the engine is auto-blipped at that point, then as you suggest you might get an excessive rise in revs due to the clutch not being fully engaged due to the slipper action.
 
As an experiment I’ll have to try doing the equivalent of a fast down block change with the GSAP, i.e. banging down 3 gears as fast as possible to see what happens, but I think the shifter might not let me do it - not very mechanically sympathetic either, perhaps I should do it on dealer demo bike :D
 
I’ll have to try doing the equivalent of a fast down block change with the GSAP, i.e. banging down 3 gears as fast as possible to see what happens

It will end in pain...
 
I believe that the GS gearbox is too agricultural for a QS system to work well

It was on my first 1200GSA LC and it wasn't brilliant, it worked but not brilliant

The S1000XR which is completely different obviously with 4 pots and a very different gear box and the QS was like a micro switch so smooth and so fast up and down it was still a case of the harder you worked it the better it was but i loved 6th to 2nd shifts with it so precise

My KTM1290 had a QS which was still better than the GS but no where near the XR and my Multistrada has QS and that is almost as good as the XR but not quite
 
I believe that the GS gearbox is too agricultural for a QS system to work well

It was on my first 1200GSA LC and it wasn't brilliant, it worked but not brilliant

The S1000XR which is completely different obviously with 4 pots and a very different gear box and the QS was like a micro switch so smooth and so fast up and down it was still a case of the harder you worked it the better it was but i loved 6th to 2nd shifts with it so precise

My KTM1290 had a QS which was still better than the GS but no where near the XR and my Multistrada has QS and that is almost as good as the XR but not quite

I suspect it is mainly due to the relatively heavy flywheel plus balancer shafts needed to give a big twin acceptable smoothness, compared to an inline four. The inertia of all that rotating mass is going to make it harder for the rear wheel and transmission to force engine revs to match road speed, which is what has to happen if you don't use the clutch to allow engine speed to change independently during a gear change. The GSAP system simply uses electronics to try to mitigate the extra mechanical stress imposed by clutchless changes, but it can't eliminate it entirely.

I still feel that quickshifters generally are a bodge, and while gaining a few milliseconds per change on the racetrack, are not something that road riders with mechanical sympathy for their machine would want to use very often. I recently changed to an RS and deliberately omitted the quickshifter from an otherwise fully optioned bike, after having had GSAP on my two previous GS models. Both of these had gear changes which were quite clunky and obstructive, particularly on upshifts in the lower ratios, though the later 1250 GS was slightly better. Both also had very annoying problems finding neutral, which I suspect was due to the GSAP widget interposed between lever and gearbox.

Maybe it is just coincidence, but the result of omitting GSAP on my new RS seems to be a much lighter and more direct feel to the shift lever, and very nice changes indeed - the best by far I have had on a boxer engined bike. It is also very easy to find neutral.
 
I suspect it is mainly due to the relatively heavy flywheel plus balancer shafts needed to give a big twin acceptable smoothness, compared to an inline four. The inertia of all that rotating mass is going to make it harder for the rear wheel and transmission to force engine revs to match road speed, which is what has to happen if you don't use the clutch to allow engine speed to change independently. The GSAP system simply uses electronics to try to mitigate the extra mechanical stress imposed by clutchless changes, but it can't eliminate it entirely.

I still feel that quickshifters generally are a bodge, and while gaining a few milliseconds per change on the racetrack, are not something that road riders with mechanical sympathy for their machine would want to use very often. I recently changed to an RS and deliberately omitted the quickshifter from an otherwise fully optioned bike, after having had GSAP on my two previous GS models. Both of these had gear changes which were quite clunky and obstructive, particularly in the lower ratios, though the later 1250 GS was slightly better. Both also had annoying problems finding neutral which I suspect is due to the GSAP widget interposed between lever and gearbox.

Maybe it is just coincidence, but the result on the new RS seems to be a much lighter and more direct feel to the shift lever, and very nice changes indeed - the best by far I have had on a boxer engined bike. It is also very easy to find neutral.

I think you are probably correct about the big twin and flywheel although that does not fully explain why the KTM is so much better QS wise a massive V twin huge torque etc and yet the gearbox and QS are significantly better than the GS The Multo is 1260 L twin with huge torque and is again way ahead in the gearbox and QS depatment

In reality a QS is at its best whne the bike is being ridden hard but there is nothing better than being in the Picos thrashing the bejesus out of a bike and being able to be really on it up the box and particularly going down in big chunks from 5th or 6th to second or first. Bang bang bang and its done giving you a good many yards lead on anon QS bike

Add in a slipper clutch and its just heavenly when it all comes together
 
In reality a QS is at its best when the bike is being ridden hard but there is nothing better than being in the Picos thrashing the bejesus out of a bike and being able to be really on it up the box and particularly going down in big chunks from 5th or 6th to second or first. Bang bang bang and its done giving you a good many yards lead on anon QS bike

Add in a slipper clutch and its just heavenly when it all comes together

Well as I said, if on a racetrack (or road riding as if you are on a racetrack! :eek:) then a QS will have some benefits. But "bang bang bang" kind of says it all. Note to self: don't buy a secondhand bike from this man! :D
 
Perhaps the extra inertia of the shaft drive doesn’t help either?

The shaft, like the wheel and parts of the transmission, is rotating at a speed locked to road speed. As such, during clutchless changes, it is a part of the system that is trying to force the engine to change its rotational speed to match a new gear ratio, so actually the mass of the shaft may well be helping in this endeavour! If using a quickshifter, one just has to hope that the gearbox is up to the task of absorbing the forces this tussle generates!
 
The shaft, like the wheel and parts of the transmission, is rotating at a speed locked to road speed. As such, during clutchless changes, it is a part of the system that is trying to force the engine to change its rotational speed to match a new gear ratio, so actually the mass of the shaft may well be helping in this endeavour! If using a quickshifter, one just has to hope that the gearbox is up to the task of absorbing the forces this tussle generates!

Yep - the whole QSAP thing appears to be soooooo mechanically unsympathetic that I rarely use mine - the sweetest gear changes are achieved with manual blips along with the clutch - one can perfect it so they simply can’t be felt.
 
Well as I said, if on a racetrack (or road riding as if you are on a racetrack! :eek:) then a QS will have some benefits. But "bang bang bang" kind of says it all. Note to self: don't buy a secondhand bike from this man! :D

all right then
click click click but you know what i meant

Warning beware of Luddites they surround us and keep us in the dark ages
 
I know I’ve written this before, but in the right scenario (say for example, rolling into an empty roundabout in a national in fifth, with the intention of leaving in third ..), a constant throttle that is just ‘set’ at your approach speed, clutch smoothly in, two gears unhurriedly taken, clutch smoothly fed back out and melting back into that set throttle..... can be such a satisfying man / machine moment ....
 
all right then
click click click but you know what i meant

Warning beware of Luddites they surround us and keep us in the dark ages

Well each to their own I guess, but I'm no Luddite. I want to see more progress, and would be happy to move on from manual shifting, but only with the right technology, and quickshifters are not it. They are far too crude, and having owned a Honda with DCT, I think it is quickshifters that are in the dark ages!

I fitted the optional foot lever on my DCT to augment the flappy paddles on the bars. The foot lever was engineered to feel like a proper gearshift even though it only operated switches, and with the bike in manual mode that combination was the perfect quickshifter. Instant perfect gearchanges and no strain on the transmission because it still used a pair of clutches, albeit computer operated ones.

If Honda made a bike with DCT that could compete with my RS in all other respects, then I would be riding one now, but sadly they don't.
 
Could you please give more info about cam alignment? What did you do exactly? Thanks.
 


Back
Top Bottom