Deleted account 211025001
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2009 R1200GS
- Thread starter GSmonkey
- Start date
Captain Pugwash
Guest
got my email this evening
VERY interesting...i'm VERY restricted in what i can say you understand
what i AM ok to say is that he was able to confirm that there is to be a major change in the engine layout/configuration for the flagship model in the GS line-up on the 2009 model year bike
the bad news is that i'll STILL be to young to own a GS in 2009
i hope you enjoy it you old tossers
You must have the same source as me !!!
I have just been shown proof of exactly that,with the wording the same as yours ( I've highlighted in bold above).Must be the same leaked email !!
It will be bloody funny when all these KTM bashers have to eat their words if they ever want a new top of the range GS.
I guess in a few years time the GS/A 1200 will be revered like some of the old duffers talk about the 1100/1150 now.
Maybe wrong but think the 800 engine was designed by and is built by Rotax same as BMW 650 engine. Didn't Rotax design and builds V twin engines for Aprillia. If you your'e talking Ducati, KTM V twins its more than likely that any V twin will be built by Rotax. Flat twin engine is having a problem in that as, suspension and tyre technology gets better, the engine is having to be fitted higher in the frame (otherwise cylinder heads will hit floor). Thereby altering C of G and handling.
Talking to a BM tech who had been on a training/ service course on the 800 GS. he says the engine is higher in the frame and the seat height is set higher than a 1200 and although the 800 is 22kg lighter than the 12 he prefers the balance of the 12.
Captain Pugwash
Guest
Dennis.
You hit on the point that I was told is another reason that BMW approached KTM for a link up.
The Boxer engine is unfortunately not going to be the way forward,due to ever tightening emission controls,and the fact that BMW have just about wangled every last bhp out of the current version that they can,without making the damn thing too peaky.
My 'contact' mentioned the 800 also,and that it was a non-starter to make a bigger version due to weight/cg problems,which you alluded to.
Rotax was considered but they made such a mess of the new V twin developed for the Buell 1125 that BMW are now looking towards KTM,because they got their 950 so right first time,and the new 1190 is allegedly even better.
Even more astonishing is that I'm now told that KTM have made an approach to BMW to buy out BMW Motorrad completely !!
If that happened we would have to put Tsiklonaut on suicide watch !!!
Dennis.
You hit on the point that I was told is another reason that BMW approached KTM for a link up.
The Boxer engine is unfortunately not going to be the way forward,due to ever tightening emission controls,and the fact that BMW have just about wangled every last bhp out of the current version that they can,without making the damn thing too peaky.
My 'contact' mentioned the 800 also,and that it was a non-starter to make a bigger version due to weight/cg problems,which you alluded to.
Rotax was considered but they made such a mess of the new V twin developed for the Buell 1125 that BMW are now looking towards KTM,because they got their 950 so right first time,and the new 1190 is allegedly even better.
Even more astonishing is that I'm now told that KTM have made an approach to BMW to buy out BMW Motorrad completely !!
If that happened we would have to put Tsiklonaut on suicide watch !!!
bloody hell
im going to email my mate at BMW motorrad and see what he knows
Even more astonishing is that I'm now told that KTM have made an approach to BMW to buy out BMW Motorrad completely !!
If that happened we would have to put Tsiklonaut on suicide watch !!!
BMW is privately owned by the Quante? family. Remember when Ford where trying to buy BMW Cars and didn't want the bikes. Seemed to have read somewhere bike division was offered to Triumph.
Doesnt KTM make more bikes per year than BMW?
I think you will find that the big number of KTM produced inlcudes the small childrens motorcycles and of course all the off road biks that don't get registered.
Dennis.
You hit on the point that I was told is another reason that BMW approached KTM for a link up.
The Boxer engine is unfortunately not going to be the way forward,due to ever tightening emission controls,and the fact that BMW have just about wangled every last bhp out of the current version that they can,without making the damn thing too peaky.
My 'contact' mentioned the 800 also,and that it was a non-starter to make a bigger version due to weight/cg problems,which you alluded to.
Rotax was considered but they made such a mess of the new V twin developed for the Buell 1125 that BMW are now looking towards KTM,because they got their 950 so right first time,and the new 1190 is allegedly even better.
Even more astonishing is that I'm now told that KTM have made an approach to BMW to buy out BMW Motorrad completely !!
If that happened we would have to put Tsiklonaut on suicide watch !!!
I don't believe it!! I am certain that BMW will stick with the boxer - to do otherwise would belike Harley making in line fours or Ducati to make a triple! The latest 1200 HP2 sport has a very new engine with DOHC (which they said could never be done in modern terms.......yeahh, yeahh I know they used to make OHC with their old racers but that was before tyres allowed such cornering and of course the motors were later successfull in side cars) - so maybe they'll have make newer boxers water cooled - but I just do not believe that they will do away with their signature layout.
As for the new parallel twin - the problem there has always been crankshaft rock - of course they have 'fixed' that with the 800 by the central crankthrow / extra conrod arrangement but to increase the capacity much further to give the required output would demand an under square motor to avoid the rocking couple effect but the resulting power characterisitc would be regarded as old fashioned. I am certain that the new in-line twin is not the way.
As for Rotax making a mess of the new Harley Davidson - I was under the impression that it had been a success?
Sure KTM made a good big twin straight off but the Germans would never use the motor from a direct competitor..............trust me, they won't let us down. BMW always come up trumps,often with a suprise! Consider their F1 1500cc motor that only had four cylinders against everone's sixes.
Captain Pugwash
Guest
I recall recently reading a couple of launch reports about the Buell 1125 held at Laguna Seca.
All the journos slated the power plant as being very rough and unrefined.
I've just read in the latest issue of Bike that Buell has delayed the release of the production bikes and is having a re-launch of the 1125R in a few months from now,having told Rotax to sort it out.
No wonder BMW erased Rotax from the equation !!
Captain Pugwash
Guest
Just found this from the MCN (yeah,I know,hardly the best) review of the Buell 1125 :
Rotax have a reputation for strong engines (Aprilia has used a 60° Rotax lump in its RSV range for years) and the new 72° version of the Buell 1125R will uphold this. Three balancer shafts keep chunky vibes to a minimum but only just restrain high rpm vibes. A good gearbox allied to a light-action slipper clutch keeps big-twin engine braking to a minimum. The 1125R’s programmable ECU needs further work to rid the early test bikes of fuelling and ignition glitches – stutter at low rpm and on a neutral throttle
Rotax have a reputation for strong engines (Aprilia has used a 60° Rotax lump in its RSV range for years) and the new 72° version of the Buell 1125R will uphold this. Three balancer shafts keep chunky vibes to a minimum but only just restrain high rpm vibes. A good gearbox allied to a light-action slipper clutch keeps big-twin engine braking to a minimum. The 1125R’s programmable ECU needs further work to rid the early test bikes of fuelling and ignition glitches – stutter at low rpm and on a neutral throttle
The Bede
Registered user
Picked up this from another forum, originally penned in March '07
But inside the 100.000 motorcycles a year firm, the opinion is divided. To make the current 1200cc Boxer engine compliant with future emission and noise regulations it will have to be dropped from the line-up for a completely new design. If BMW are to continue with its traditional Boxer design there are several problems. The major problem is that a liquid cooled DOHC version of the Boxer engine would simply be too wide! You wouldn't be able to corner such a motorcycle without ploughing up the tarmac with the cylinder heads. 'It would be too wide and would not corner properly', Markus said. BMW also stated in our phone interview that without the Boxer engine BMW are afraid it will loose some of its uniqueness and be left with engines that are more similar to other manufacturers.
As we all know BMW have their in-line four, parallell twin and single cylinder engines in addition to the Boxer. So one of the alternatives to replace the Boxer line-up would be to use parallell twin engines rather than the Boxer. But then again, that would change dramatically how a BMW GS would look like for instance. Can you imagine a BMW R1200GS without the two cylinder heads sticking out on each side? No, neither can we and this is a big dilemma for the BMW engineers at the moment. The Boxer engine is the jewel in the crown and center of attention for BMW. Biebricher said that 1 or 2 years is not enough for BMW to find a solution and that there are not even drawings of such a replacement for the R-series.
... Diesel would be interesting for the GS market
... V format ala Guzzi
... Shallow angle V-twin
... V-Four
... Radial triple with 'jota' timing
... But for solid engineering reasons the Boxer is reaching the end of it's evolution.
But inside the 100.000 motorcycles a year firm, the opinion is divided. To make the current 1200cc Boxer engine compliant with future emission and noise regulations it will have to be dropped from the line-up for a completely new design. If BMW are to continue with its traditional Boxer design there are several problems. The major problem is that a liquid cooled DOHC version of the Boxer engine would simply be too wide! You wouldn't be able to corner such a motorcycle without ploughing up the tarmac with the cylinder heads. 'It would be too wide and would not corner properly', Markus said. BMW also stated in our phone interview that without the Boxer engine BMW are afraid it will loose some of its uniqueness and be left with engines that are more similar to other manufacturers.
As we all know BMW have their in-line four, parallell twin and single cylinder engines in addition to the Boxer. So one of the alternatives to replace the Boxer line-up would be to use parallell twin engines rather than the Boxer. But then again, that would change dramatically how a BMW GS would look like for instance. Can you imagine a BMW R1200GS without the two cylinder heads sticking out on each side? No, neither can we and this is a big dilemma for the BMW engineers at the moment. The Boxer engine is the jewel in the crown and center of attention for BMW. Biebricher said that 1 or 2 years is not enough for BMW to find a solution and that there are not even drawings of such a replacement for the R-series.
... Diesel would be interesting for the GS market
... V format ala Guzzi
... Shallow angle V-twin
... V-Four
... Radial triple with 'jota' timing
... But for solid engineering reasons the Boxer is reaching the end of it's evolution.
Well, so much for this source...........BMW have already made a DOHC boxer in the new HP2 Sport (is it only me that's noticed this?) and ground clearance clearly isn't a problem. Liquid cooling wouldn't be too hard to add.
I was told that BMW is working a "liquid cooled 40% V Boxer", that they will be calling the "Kick Boxer". It will be made in a twin and a four.
kiwiAdventure
Registered user
What is this an early April fools joke.
johnnystorm
Registered user
cant wait to see the KTM engined one
should be a vast improvement...i mean look how much better the Buell uylee is with it same layout
Oh c'mon, are you after a trolling award! 
Being "best" on paper, or anywhere else for that matter has never been the whole story. Ford Escorts and Morris Marinas have been Britain's best selling cars when there were "better" alternatives. How do Ducati manage to sell bikes to anyone when people could buy a Honda instead? Similarly the 1200GS might not be "the best" for any number of reasons but it's hardly stopped them flying out the doors making a huge amount of money for BMW. The fact my bike has a daft engine, no chain and some funny forks is all part of the appeal. Take those elements away and the customers will go elsewhere. Alll imho of course.
Being "best" on paper, or anywhere else for that matter has never been the whole story. Ford Escorts and Morris Marinas have been Britain's best selling cars when there were "better" alternatives. How do Ducati manage to sell bikes to anyone when people could buy a Honda instead? Similarly the 1200GS might not be "the best" for any number of reasons but it's hardly stopped them flying out the doors making a huge amount of money for BMW. The fact my bike has a daft engine, no chain and some funny forks is all part of the appeal. Take those elements away and the customers will go elsewhere. Alll imho of course.
BINGO!
kevmeister
Registered user
I'm not so sure. I'd really go for K1200GS. The smoothness, power and refinement of that K lump in the versatile frame of the GS would be something i'd certainly want to try. As long as they could keep the weight down of course!!
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