3-Layer vs Direct Laminate Waterproof Gear?

PhaedrusMC

PhaedrusMC

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Hi.

Couldn't find a thread on this. There may be relevant comments in other threads, but I couldn't find any.

I can't get my head around why bike jackets with fixed or removable waterproof layers even exist. Are they for climates where being waterproof is only an occasional requirement from a jacket? Ireland rains a lot. And randomly. So a permanently waterproof jacket is really the only logical option.

I understand the outer shell can become soaked, and that water can enter between the outer shell and the waterproof layer. Can't say I remember experiencing that with any waterproof jacket I've owned.

My hiking gear is direct laminate 3-layer. This is quite different from the 3-layer format of bike jackets (shell / removable thermal layer / fixed or removable waterproof liner), in that the 3 layers (shell / waterproof membrane / inner layer to protect WP membrane) are bonded / laminated together to effectively become one layer. No opportunity for water ingress between separate layers. I love my hiking gear - it's really effective & comfy. But unsuitable for use on a bike.

There are bike jackets out there that employ similar bonding construction, and those would be my preference when buying a new bike jacket (& pants), but it seems they're either quite expensive (Held Cadora for example - https://www.fc-moto.de/Held-Cadora), or from brands I'm not familiar with (Macna Impact for example - http://www.fc-moto.de/Macna-Impact-Textile-Jacket).

How big an issue, if at all, is inter-layer water ingress & shell layer saturation in 3-layer bike jackets?

If choosing a jacket with three separate layers, do you guys favour a fixed or removable waterproof layer?

Are any of you rocking a set-up where you use waterproof over-jackets & pants over other riding gear?


Thanks for any replies,

Mark
 
My 3 layer Klim Badlands Pro gear isn't quite like you described (if I read you right...)
3 layers to form one garment - not 3 garments...

from Klim:
GORE-TEX® is a highly evolved technology in waterproof/breathable garment construction. It’s not a top-coating on the outside of a fabric and it’s not a magic system of weaves. KLIM’s GORE-TEX® construction is a customized combination of layers processed precisely into what we call laminates. Like a layered cake or sandwich, A KLIM garment featuring GORE-TEX® technology incorporates multiple layers.

A Two-Layer GORE-TEX® piece (like many of our Performance Shell jackets and parkas) features a laminate combo that is simply two-parts: an outer fabric and a GORE-TEX® membrane. The GORE-TEX® membrane is bonded to the outer fabric (outer shell of the garment) only. This provides high wearing comfort, flexibility and versatility/simplicity in the designs of clothing because the total laminate thickness is generally lighter. The GORE-TEX® membrane is easily seen in a Two-Layer piece as a white, slippery surface on the inside. These products usually incorporate a wicking inner liner (mesh) to help protect the GORE-TEX® membrane from wear and tear as well as enhance breathability.

In a Three-Layer GORE-TEX® piece (like all of KLIM’s pants and bibs and everything in the Pro Shell category like the Valdez Parka) the Gore membrane is bonded to both the outer fabric and an inner lining. This eliminates movement, friction and, as a result, excess wear and tear on all layers of the laminate. A Three-Layer piece also allows for advanced construction techniques like Comfort Mapping. The main benefits of a Three-Layer GORE-TEX® piece from KLIM are increased durability throughout, higher potential levels of breathability and a more robust build/feel


No leaks - no issues - great gear

Dont wear anything but a heated jacket underneath as there is no separate thermal value...
 
The construction of that Klim jacket you describe seems to be the same as my (Rab eVent) hiking gear, and the same as the Held Cadora example I linked to.

Although technically described as "3-layer", the 3 layers are effectively one layer.

The other type I mentioned is where there are 3 separate non-bonded layers, or garments as you say.

The Klim construction you describe is what I think I'd prefer in bike gear.

But if you crash and tear or hole the jacket, it's no longer waterproof, whereas with a separate waterproof layer (whether fixed or removable), the jacket can still be called waterproof.
 
PhaedrusMC said:
The construction of that Klim jacket you describe seems to be the same as my (Rab eVent) hiking gear, and the same as the Held Cadora example I linked to.

Although technically described as "3-layer", the 3 layers are effectively one layer.

The other type I mentioned is where there are 3 separate non-bonded layers, or garments as you say.

The Klim construction you describe is what I think I'd prefer in bike gear.

But if you crash and tear or hole the jacket, it's no longer waterproof, whereas with a separate waterproof layer (whether fixed or removable), the jacket can still be called waterproof.
Click to expand...

Correct - but if I come off and can still walk to work - I am happy to buy another... :)
 
newboy said:
............................

Dont wear anything but a heated jacket underneath as there is no separate thermal value...
Click to expand...

Do you mind explaining what you mean by that please, ta?

OP - you have potentially started one of the longest threads we'll see on here in our life time as everybody has a view (and often opposing) so here goes mine. It's a view based on personal experience and on the fact I don't really feel the cold too badly but easily (and hate) getting hot.

Jacket with separate Gortex liner, like the WBM Rallye jacket.

Lots of venting and, with the separate waterproof liner removed, very cool and comfy in the summer. With the waterproof liner in it's waterproof, fairly warm and not sweaty but the outer jacket can get very water logged when in heavy rain. It's then still waterproof but you'll get cold easier and it's a bugger to dry.
For this reason I carry a cheap army Gortex over jacket that I wear over the top when in biblical conditions. This stops the jacket getting soaked through and also acts as a windbreak keeping you warmer. Layered up under the jacket and with the Gortex over jacket I use that throughout the winter and have ridden in horrific conditions like that keeping toasty warm.
A proper 4 season solution (for me).

Gortex trilaminate.

I've recently bought a Klim Badlands Pro. So far it's completely waterproof and very warm, even without layering up underneath it. However, despite being very well vented it is no where near as cool as my Rallye jacket without it's liner in which is hardly surprising as the Gortex layer in the laminate acts as a windbreak.
Also, due to the laminate construction the material is not as comfortable to wear, it's quite stiff. I'm hoping that once it's had it's first wash it'll soften up a bit but speaking to others they never quite loose that stiffness.

In all honesty I prefer the Rallye jacket because of its removable liner as it works the best for me in terms of it's compromise between comfort, warmth, coolness and waterproofness. The Klim jacket however, is better featured, looks better and I'd trust it far more in an 'off'.

It's all a compromise, there's no magic bullet, just what works for you.

Andres
 
Wot I meant was:
On a normal day's riding - usual undies and t-shirt are OK.
On a cold day - the single layer Klim has no fleece or other thermal protection so wind and cold can get you... So I wear a Powerlet Heated jacket and dual controller (will be buying a pants liner too for Alaska)

My Klim BLP has softened a little after about 10k and 2-3 washes...
 
Just changed from three layer jacket (frank Thomas) which has been a very good jacket to Held jacket where the outer is waterproof. The old jacket did get very heavy when wet. It also seemed to suck the warmth from me. I got the held jacket and trousers from fcmoto de, saving £50 per item. If tempted to do this you must first try them on in a shop here as I was a size smaller in the held gear, both in jacket and trousers. So far I am very happy with the held gear. Hopefully I will get to find out how it performs in warm weather this summer.
 
newboy said:
Wot I meant was:
On a normal day's riding - usual undies and t-shirt are OK.
On a cold day - the single layer Klim has no fleece or other thermal protection so wind and cold can get you... So I wear a Powerlet Heated jacket and dual controller (will be buying a pants liner too for Alaska)

My Klim BLP has softened a little after about 10k and 2-3 washes...
Click to expand...

Ah, cheers and yes, that's exactly what I've been doing. T shirt in warmer weather and thin long sleeve Merino wool top with a heated fleece in the weather we're having at the moment = perfect :)

Glad to know they really do soften up, even by just a little bit.

Andres
 
Outtomunch said:
Ah, cheers and yes, that's exactly what I've been doing. T shirt in warmer weather and thin long sleeve Merino wool top with a heated fleece in the weather we're having at the moment = perfect :)

Glad to know they really do soften up, even by just a little bit.

Andres
Click to expand...

Mine softened up to comfy after 2 washes !
The new version of the Badlands is actually much softer straight off the shelf as i think Klim have changed something in the construction ( It is also cheaper)
 
redrick said:
Mine softened up to comfy after 2 washes !
The new version of the Badlands is actually much softer straight off the shelf as i think Klim have changed something in the construction ( It is also cheaper)
Click to expand...

Cheaper :eek: FFS, how much were the Badlands 'cos the current Badlands Pro ain't exactly cheap to put it mildly!!!!!!

Andres

Edit: The construction on the 'Pro' uses slightly less Cordura in non impact areas to make the jacket a bit lighter and a bit more flexible AFAIK
 
Outtomunch said:
Cheaper :eek: FFS, how much were the Badlands 'cos the current Badlands Pro ain't exactly cheap to put it mildly!!!!!!

Andres

Edit: The construction on the 'Pro' uses slightly less Cordura in non impact areas to make the jacket a bit lighter and a bit more flexible AFAIK
Click to expand...

Correct - I am glad I got the BLP - the new one (Polaris owned now) seems a little cheaper in construction even though it's fixed a few wrinkles in the design (e.g. collar is now better)...
 
Isn't the Badlands Pro (BLP) the new one whilst the Badlands (with the higher collar and more Cordura) the old one - mine's the Pro and is the current offering from Klim (I think?!?!)

I'm confused now :D

Andres
 
newboy said:
Correct - I am glad I got the BLP - the new one (Polaris owned now) seems a little cheaper in construction even though it's fixed a few wrinkles in the design (e.g. collar is now better)...
Click to expand...

They have also sorted the cuffs which were a problem for some ( not me)

I have the BLP and love it I bought it and the troos over 3 years ago now when there was no big importer so they were more money than now as J&S are selling them and will haggle allegedly
 
Outtomunch said:
Isn't the Badlands Pro (BLP) the new one whilst the Badlands (with the higher collar and more Cordura) the old one - mine's the Pro and is the current offering from Klim (I think?!?!)

I'm confused now :D

Andres
Click to expand...

You and me both ! Mine was certainly called the badlands pro when i bought it but looking on ABW website it seems the pro is now the cheaper of the 2 even though the new one feels less substantial in build. it feels very simmilar to BMW street guard.

If you have a stiff one ( Ooh err mrs) i think it will be the BLP
Post a picture
 
Gazz's 'Pro' jackets are discounted 'cos they are the old model, priced to sell through :)

Mine is definitely the current, made of cheese, non Pro

Sorry for the confusion ladies, I'll punish myself soundly when I get home tonight!

Amdres
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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