I'll second that..... and I'm pretty certain there are many born again bikers here whose road skills don't match their own perceptions.
Advanced biker YouTube whoopsie
- Thread starter ukrr
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I'll second that..... and I'm pretty certain there are many born again bikers here whose road skills don't match their own perceptions.
I'll second that as well. There are many riders who clearly believe their own road skills are so good they don't need any refresher or advanced. However, the new hierarchy are becoming silly and turning both IAM and ROSPA into self licking lollipops.I agree with quite a lot of this. That said, I have yet to meet an un-coached rider, no matter how experienced or how "quick" that wouldn't have benefited from some decent advanced training - no matter what the source.
For too many the lack of training itself becomes a point of principle and/or a badge of honour.
Just saying like...
All this Rospa and IAM stuff all seems daftly hierarchical to me, to the point where the main point of it all is disappearing up their own bottoms 
All this Rospa and IAM stuff all seems daftly hierarchical to me, to the point where the main point of it all is disappearing up their own bottoms
For once i woulod agree with you !
A day with Giles or dare i say it Nigel will be worth far more tha a badge and certificate
If I'm honest, the club part of it is not my scene. But I certainly wouldn't knock either of them, I was there in the 80's for a year or so, in fact it was through my local group that I got friendly with the examiner and ultimately that steered me towards my job now.
My experience through coaching, is that probably (so thats a bit of a wooly generalisation ... but probably ..) the best riders I see have gone through that club process, come out of it the other side, left it behind and then sort of moved on and worked out their own style. Those riders tend to be more .. errrr ..... ummmm ..... relaxed ? At ease with themselves? Enjoy their riding and don't suffer from the peer pressure of other riders watching them ?? So they're trained, they're systemised and do all the things you should be doing, they just have a bit more of a Mañana approach to stuff and don't seem to hang on so tight!!
And I guess that would be my general grey area, wooly impression of the club riders .... chill out! Learn to relax and enjoy your riding, stop worrying about what the world thinks of your riding and shock horror .... whether you've missed a mirror check coming into that hazard ....
My experience through coaching, is that probably (so thats a bit of a wooly generalisation ... but probably ..) the best riders I see have gone through that club process, come out of it the other side, left it behind and then sort of moved on and worked out their own style. Those riders tend to be more .. errrr ..... ummmm ..... relaxed ? At ease with themselves? Enjoy their riding and don't suffer from the peer pressure of other riders watching them ?? So they're trained, they're systemised and do all the things you should be doing, they just have a bit more of a Mañana approach to stuff and don't seem to hang on so tight!!
And I guess that would be my general grey area, wooly impression of the club riders .... chill out! Learn to relax and enjoy your riding, stop worrying about what the world thinks of your riding and shock horror .... whether you've missed a mirror check coming into that hazard ....
I agree there can be stuff to learn, the Police Bikesafe course I did years ago was worthwhile and there were some good points BUT I don't go along with being 'taught' this 'system' stuff - it's for a different mentality than mine
I agree there can be stuff to learn, the Police Bikesafe course I did years ago was worthwhile and there were some good points BUT I don't go along with being 'taught' this 'system' stuff - it's for a different mentality than mine
You either have a piss poor mentality or you do use the system or at least some of the system whether you know it or not
Maybe I've come up with my own way through experience, but I'd hardly call it a system, more fly by the seat of my pants and just winging it
I am sure that wouldn't suit everybody, dunno, don't care, but I look forward to riding my bike at every opportunity 
I agree there can be stuff to learn, the Police Bikesafe course I did years ago was worthwhile and there were some good points BUT I don't go along with being 'taught' this 'system' stuff - it's for a different mentality than mine
You'd fit right in, at the meetings..............
Standing on the table, shouting: "Everyone be quiet, and listen to me!"
You'd fit right in, at the meetings..............
Standing on the table, shouting: "Everyone be quiet, and listen to me!"
Don't worry I wouldn't go to such meetings - I wouldn't want to be heretic amidst their 'groupthink', it would be like trying to convert the religious to atheism.
Training Rospa Iam
It dont matter a fig how much training you have had or where you perceive yourself to be on the Rospa Iam rank ladder or structure.
You are only as good as the ride you are on at the time.
Yes everyone could take something away from the training that is usefull enough to save their bacon.
That vid looks like a momentary lack of concentration / observation.
You can make all the excuses you like to save face but you cant fool yourself.Or maybe you can if you tell yourself enough times.He was fortunate Pierre wasnt coming the other way.
The training club scene is an interesting people watching scenario My personal favourites are the Guys who swallow the full Roadcraft manual and follow it to the letter lacking the imagination to use it as a useful aid and develop their own riding style.
Or those that look down on others with their sanctimonious I am in possession of the Holy Grail mentality .It does put those that need it off training particularly when they are Dayglo Dereked up in a like minded clique.
Im not knocking the genuine Guys that do a fantastic job teaching survival skills in their own time Gents I applaud you.
It dont matter a fig how much training you have had or where you perceive yourself to be on the Rospa Iam rank ladder or structure.
You are only as good as the ride you are on at the time.
Yes everyone could take something away from the training that is usefull enough to save their bacon.
That vid looks like a momentary lack of concentration / observation.
You can make all the excuses you like to save face but you cant fool yourself.Or maybe you can if you tell yourself enough times.He was fortunate Pierre wasnt coming the other way.
The training club scene is an interesting people watching scenario My personal favourites are the Guys who swallow the full Roadcraft manual and follow it to the letter lacking the imagination to use it as a useful aid and develop their own riding style.
Or those that look down on others with their sanctimonious I am in possession of the Holy Grail mentality .It does put those that need it off training particularly when they are Dayglo Dereked up in a like minded clique.
Im not knocking the genuine Guys that do a fantastic job teaching survival skills in their own time Gents I applaud you.
thumperbob2002
Registered user
Lots of different views about the advanced riding institutions here.
My opinion- well I actually joined the IAM/Rospa a couple of years ago- main reason- to become an observer and help those that might need a bit of help.
On my first ride with my observer it didnt start too well.
A bit about me- been riding from when I was 14- I`m 55 now- done motocross/enduro/trials for some years. Been a track day addict for over 30 years. Rode mostly everything on the road and had some professional advanced training some years back. I`m quite experienced and a better road rider than track rider.
My observer- not a born again biker but a new biker- still in his 50s- just passed his bike test a year before- on an ER6 ( not that theres anything wrong with an ER6 ). Terrible rider with basically no idea.
Why the hell he was given to me I dont know, and this could have ended my relationship with the iAM then and there. Still, I got rid of him quickly and Im now a national Observer and have the Masters distinction ( not that its particularly difficult ).
I quite enjoy helping the odd guy or girl. The only problem is, they all seem to be of a certain age and covered in Hi-Vis. I would love it if they were all young, aggressive sports bike riders- I think they would get much more out of it, and I`d probably enjoy it even more.
I dont involve myself in the club politics etc and hardly ever join them on social rides- just like the teaching/learning process.
My opinion- well I actually joined the IAM/Rospa a couple of years ago- main reason- to become an observer and help those that might need a bit of help.
On my first ride with my observer it didnt start too well.
A bit about me- been riding from when I was 14- I`m 55 now- done motocross/enduro/trials for some years. Been a track day addict for over 30 years. Rode mostly everything on the road and had some professional advanced training some years back. I`m quite experienced and a better road rider than track rider.
My observer- not a born again biker but a new biker- still in his 50s- just passed his bike test a year before- on an ER6 ( not that theres anything wrong with an ER6 ). Terrible rider with basically no idea.
Why the hell he was given to me I dont know, and this could have ended my relationship with the iAM then and there. Still, I got rid of him quickly and Im now a national Observer and have the Masters distinction ( not that its particularly difficult ).
I quite enjoy helping the odd guy or girl. The only problem is, they all seem to be of a certain age and covered in Hi-Vis. I would love it if they were all young, aggressive sports bike riders- I think they would get much more out of it, and I`d probably enjoy it even more.
I dont involve myself in the club politics etc and hardly ever join them on social rides- just like the teaching/learning process.
Maybe I've come up with my own way through experience, but I'd hardly call it a system, more fly by the seat of my pants and just winging it
A great example of what psychologists call the principle of Illusory Superiority, or the Above-Average Effect.
The majority of car drivers consider themselves to be of above average driving ability. I haven't checked recently but I do seem to recall some studies suggesting the proportion was over 90%.
Whatever the figure for car drivers is, I bet it's higher still for bikers...
A great example of what psychologists call the principle of Illusory Superiority, or the Above-Average Effect.
The majority of car drivers consider themselves to be of above average driving ability. I haven't checked recently but I do seem to recall some studies suggesting the proportion was over 90%.
Whatever the figure for car drivers is, I bet it's higher still for bikers...
It matters not one jot what such people may or may not think about their own ability, what really matters is whether they are safe or not.
phooey
Registered user
....the best riders I see have gone through that club process, come out of it the other side, left it behind and then sort of moved on and worked out their own style. Those riders tend to be more .. errrr ..... ummmm ..... relaxed ? At ease with themselves? Enjoy their riding and don't suffer from the peer pressure of other riders watching them ?? So they're trained, they're systemised and do all the things you should be doing, they just have a bit more of a Mañana approach to stuff and don't seem to hang on so tight!!
.. chill out! Learn to relax and enjoy your riding, stop worrying about what the world thinks of your riding and shock horror .... whether you've missed a mirror check coming into that hazard ....
That's about the size of it for me Giles.
Skillful, relaxed, have nothing to 'prove' to anyone and utterly indifferent what you think.
In short they have 'arrived'.
Jesus, 14 pages !
Some people on here have got some very strange ideas about advanced riders and the groups they belong to. I don't recognise any of the negative attributes being expressed on here in the riders in my group, particularly the ones about advanced riders believing themselves to be superior or above others. I can't help but feel some people are feeling somewhat insecure, or have some kind of inferiority complex .
Admittedly, I have met one or two that can be as described, but they are by no means the majority, and I not seen them in the group I belong to.
Whilst I'm an active member in my own IAM group, as a National Observer, I have also have taken the RoSPA test, though am not involved with RoSPA. If any one asks I will explain the virtues of both organisations, and the pitfalls, and do not favour one above the other.
I ride my own ride, I do not criticise others, and I do not push further training on anyone unless they ask me about it.
I too have taken the IAM Masters, unlike thumperbob2002, I found it to be the toughest riding test I've taken.
.Admittedly, I have met one or two that can be as described, but they are by no means the majority, and I not seen them in the group I belong to.
Whilst I'm an active member in my own IAM group, as a National Observer, I have also have taken the RoSPA test, though am not involved with RoSPA. If any one asks I will explain the virtues of both organisations, and the pitfalls, and do not favour one above the other.
I ride my own ride, I do not criticise others, and I do not push further training on anyone unless they ask me about it.
I too have taken the IAM Masters, unlike thumperbob2002, I found it to be the toughest riding test I've taken.
I would suggest that those who overestimate their own abilities and aren't open to learn from others, are likely to be less safe.
Dunno would be an interesting research project
but if one puts safety at the top, then a measure of the number of accidents riders have been involved in might be a good measure of ability.