Akro de-cat with flappy valve

stick

stick

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Before we start this is not a HT thread.
My riding pal has decided to run an Akro (s/steel) de cat with the flappy valve on his 18 late R1250 GS along with a Euro 3 end can (Akro) , now the question he is asking me is should I re map it or is the new ECU adaptive enough to deal with and adjust to the new pipe and get the same gains a re map might.
Its an open question but not a restart of old arguments , more a bit of advice for him. I have my my own views but I said i would put it up for discussion.
If this gets to thread that caused grief I will close it.
I am asking for some real advice either way for him to make a decision.
Thanks
 
stick said:
Before we start this is not a HT thread.
My riding pal has decided to run an Akro (s/steel) de cat with the flappy valve on his 18 late R1250 GS along with a Euro 3 end can (Akro) , now the question he is asking me is should I re map it or is the new ECU adaptive enough to deal with and adjust to the new pipe and get the same gains a re map might.
Its an open question but not a restart of old arguments , more a bit of advice for him. I have my my own views but I said i would put it up for discussion.
If this gets to thread that caused grief I will close it.
I am asking for some real advice either way for him to make a decision.
Thanks
Click to expand...

The answer is obviously no. Adaptive without remap basically means the ecu will adjust to keep the fueling in the range the manufacturer intended. A remap as in a proper remap gives the tuner the opportunity to decide by results what fueling works best for that bike. No 2 engines will have the same map if it’s a proper remap as it’s driven by results, hence why it takes hours to do.

If your asking if the adaptive nature of the ecu copes with the change to give you a safe engine and you get gains from the unrestricted system, yes. Enough tuners have confirmed that.
 
spoonz said:
The answer is obviously no. Adaptive without remap basically means the ecu will adjust to keep the fueling in the range the manufacturer intended. A remap as in a proper remap gives the tuner the opportunity to decide by results what fueling works best for that bike. No 2 engines will have the same map if it’s a proper remap as it’s driven by results, hence why it takes hours to do.

If your asking if the adaptive nature of the ecu copes with the change to give you a safe engine and you get gains from the unrestricted system, yes. Enough tuners have confirmed that.
Click to expand...

Spoonz , thanks for the answer and points , Its finding a say proven / liked re map centre that seems to give the problems .:thumb
 
stick said:
Spoonz , thanks for the answer and points , Its finding a say proven / liked re map centre that seems to give the problems .:thumb
Click to expand...

I doubt it’s that hard depending on where he is. PCR in Cannock did my Aprilia and got good results. BSD have a very good reputation across lots of marques. I’ve never read a bad review of them personally.

if a potential tuner sticks a probe up your exhaust and bases that on how your bike is fueling, walk away.
 
OP ask two questions here:
1: "is the new ECU adaptive enough to deal with and adjust to the new pipe "

Yes, the ECU will fully adapt to adjust to the new pipe

2: "and get the same gains a re map might"

As @spoonz says. No.

The ECU will readjust to the OEM fueling, while a remap will bring the fueling to a richer level than the OEM fueling.
Thus: If he is happy with the present fueling, the new pipes will bring a couple of HP and a few DB to the table while the OEM fueling is kept.
There is no technical reason to remap when changing the pipes for any of the newer BMW's (and probably other Euro 4/5 bikes)

However, a proper (and real) remap will bring a bit more fuel to the low and mid-range of the engine. When the throttle is kept wide open, the fueling is already on the rich side, so there are small gains to the maximum power. Since most people do most of their riding at less than WOT, a remap will bring a bit more "spirited" feeling to the engine.

I'm not familiar with tuners in the UK, but i know that some of the guys behind the 'Treetop' site have tuned the 1250, with graphs and AFR tables to back it up.

A search on FB for Treetop Tuning will point your pal in the right direction. They also claim that they have been able to keep the new tuning from being overwritten by a software update, and they have explained how and why it is possible to do so.
 
knutk said:
OP ask two questions here:
1: "is the new ECU adaptive enough to deal with and adjust to the new pipe "

Yes, the ECU will fully adapt to adjust to the new pipe

2: "and get the same gains a re map might"

As @spoonz says. No.

The ECU will readjust to the OEM fueling, while a remap will bring the fueling to a richer level than the OEM fueling.
Thus: If he is happy with the present fueling, the new pipes will bring a couple of HP and a few DB to the table while the OEM fueling is kept.
There is no technical reason to remap when changing the pipes for any of the newer BMW's (and probably other Euro 4/5 bikes)

However, a proper (and real) remap will bring a bit more fuel to the low and mid-range of the engine. When the throttle is kept wide open, the fueling is already on the rich side, so there are small gains to the maximum power. Since most people do most of their riding at less than WOT, a remap will bring a bit more "spirited" feeling to the engine.

I'm not familiar with tuners in the UK, but i know that some of the guys behind the 'Treetop' site have tuned the 1250, with graphs and AFR tables to back it up.

A search on FB for Treetop Tuning will point your pal in the right direction. They also claim that they have been able to keep the new tuning from being overwritten by a software update, and they have explained how and why it is possible to do so.
Click to expand...
Knutk, thanks for the info , I have looked at the Treetop FB page but seem to only see a list of attacks to HT , are they a real place or am I looking at the the wrong company but cannot find any other links to a workshop / web page .
I will be phoning a few tuners but looking at web pages most do not list the 1250 . Again thanks and the search will continue to find a tuner for an alternative view than the HT concept . As you and Spoonz say the best gains would be with a map but need to find a place that can and has done one .
Found one in Europe with good results , but a bit far away lol . Thanks again 👍
 
stick said:
As you and Spoonz say the best gains would be with a map but need to find a place that can and has done one .
Found one in Europe with good results , but a bit far away lol . Thanks again 👍
Click to expand...

You could try PCR who did my Aprilia properly, although I don’t know if they work with the GS. CJS in Bristol list BMW ( don’t know about 1250 ) and Dave wood racing lists the 1200 so might do the 1250 too. I’ve never used either but my Ducati was serviced next door to CJS at Louigi Moto and he always had high praise for him.
 
stick said:
Knutk, thanks for the info , I have looked at the Treetop FB page but seem to only see a list of attacks to HT , are they a real place or am I looking at the the wrong company but cannot find any other links to a workshop / web page .
I will be phoning a few tuners but looking at web pages most do not list the 1250 . Again thanks and the search will continue to find a tuner for an alternative view than the HT concept . As you and Spoonz say the best gains would be with a map but need to find a place that can and has done one .
Found one in Europe with good results , but a bit far away lol . Thanks again 👍
Click to expand...

Facebook is a terrible media to bring sensible information, as the newest posting is always on top.

However, if you scroll down the page for a while, this list of tuners that are able to handle BMWs come up (or rather, down :D)
Listed January 7, 2020.

Nick Underwood: www.roadandraceperformance.co.uk
Gary Donahue: www.mototuning.ie
Chris Steedman: www.cjsracing.co.uk
Dave Wood: www.davewoodracing.com
Darren Mcvilly www.ecuwest.com.au
David Edgecome: www.dynobike.com.au
Brendon: www.brentuning.com
Carma performance Nashville
Louie Grech: www.platinummotorcycles.com.au
Simon: www.ukracesupport.com
John: www.jwmotorcycles.co.uk
 
As for de-catting the newest bikes, there is a potential cloud on the horizon.
The 1250 is equipped with a third O2 sensor, placed down-stream, after the cat.

Euro 5 was implemented 01.01.2020. However, bikes already certified before this date (1250 was introduced 2019) had one more year before they had to comply, i.e 01.01.2021.

Even if all the 1250 bikes are equipped with the #3 O2 sensor, according to tuners, the #3 sensor was not activated when the 1250 was introduced.

This makes sense. BMW does not comply to E-5 before they have to. As an example, The F750/850, introduced a year before, even when E-5 was 'just around the corner', the first ones came equipped with a single narrow band O2 sensor. The 2020 is different, and comes with 2 WB O2 sensors.

The E-5 requires the engine to maintain the emission standard for the engine life time, and to check for deviations from the standard. I suspect this is where the #3 O2 sensor comes in.

This potentially means that if you de-cat a 2021 1250 and rely on adaption only, the engine will adapt, but as the cat is no longer there, the #3 (when activated), will potentially throw a fault code.

I feel confident that a qualified tuner will sort this out, as the accepted value defined for #3 must be in there, and it may be altered, like anything else. But it may mean that the days of merely throw away the cat without remapping may be history.

This far, I have yet to see a report stating that the #3 O2 sensor reading has been an issue. However, I very much doubt that BMW put in the #3 O2 sensor without having a plan for using it, and reading the E-5 regulations, the #3 seems to be needed in order to comply to the E-5 standard.
 
Knunk , thanks for the advice and your thoughts on the subject , very helpful and full of information. Appreciate the imput and knowlage.
I have contacted a couple of tuners but waiting for a reply . I take it the 18/19 plate bikes would be not included in the activation of the No:3 sensor at a future service / software update due to manufacture date , is this your take on it as well?

Again thanks
 
spoonz said:
I doubt it’s that hard depending on where he is. PCR in Cannock did my Aprilia and got good results. BSD have a very good reputation across lots of marques. I’ve never read a bad review of them personally.

if a potential tuner sticks a probe up your exhaust and bases that on how your bike is fueling, walk away.
Click to expand...

Spoonz , left a message with CJS Racing to see if there is an option there. Thanks
 
stick said:
Knunk , thanks for the advice and your thoughts on the subject , very helpful and full of information. Appreciate the imput and knowlage.
I have contacted a couple of tuners but waiting for a reply . I take it the 18/19 plate bikes would be not included in the activation of the No:3 sensor at a future service / software update due to manufacture date , is this your take on it as well?

Again thanks
Click to expand...

As for BMW updating pre E-5 engines, this remains to be seen.

What I know for sure is: Me previous bike, a 2015 GSA and Euro-3 bike, was in for the fork-recall in 2017. When the bike was in (I do my own service) they also updated the ECU to comply with Euro 4.

When they gave me the keys after the bike was done, the pusher said: BMW have asked us to update all the LC's to Euro-4, so we did yours as well. (at no charge).

When riding home, I could also notice that something had been done to it, as the bike would run a bit rough for the first few miles until the adaptions caught up.
(All in all an improvement, and my DIY O2 manipulator made it into a really sweet running engine).

If BMW's attitude is still the same (and my dealer by saying BMW pointed to the BMW mothership rather than the BMW national office), future bikes may experience the same.

So.. If someone brings in a de-catted bike for service, it may be an idea to ask about it, and if pertinent, perhaps suggest that an Euro-5 update is not desired.
 
Winjar said:
Sorry but simple good hot engine can show this number on dyno, with no map, good mapping take few hours and lot experience.

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that this is a scam?

I googled the company, and found a tuner in Belgium. Is that the one?

If so, I would be suspicious:
They list improved performance for their tune as:

HP: Up from 136 to 142 = +6 Hp
Trq: Up from 143 to 150 = +7 Nm

No graph of AFR

They listed several 'Nice' feauters, and ended the list by claiming "Emission standards are maintained".

Should this ring a bell? Absolutely.

Most Dynos would measure the 1250 to the vicinity of 125 Hp on the rear wheel. To Dyno, and claim 142Hp and say +6 would require some correctional factor added to the reading, knowing exactly what the drive train loss is. And inform about the fact that the reading is not not the rear wheel numbers. Hm........

Also, claiming that the Emission standard are maintained ? They advertise chiptuning and such, which means that you may only tweak the fuel and ignition timing.
If it is so easy to gain 5% more power from the engine and still maintain emission standards, then what on Earth is BMW up to? Are the BMW engineers ignorant fools that knows nothing, as the real brainpower is found in Belgium (and Hinkley) Hm...

I think you guys are correct.

There are real tuners out there that do a decent and honest job.
This company is most likely not one of them...
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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