Brakes Failed Today!

[Steve B]

Had a few days leave booked this week to get out and have a good play with the bike before the roads fill up once the good weather comes.
Put some Nippy Normans bar risers on this morning and decided to go out to the coast (well Weston Super Mare actually) and see what difference they made.

Coming out of WSM approaching a roundabout I started to brake as the large white van in front was stopping. NO BRAKES. FEEEEEEECK! I have the ABS with servo and it was just like turning the ignition off. Coasted to a very hairy stop coming up a couple of feet short of the vans rear end.

Red warning light came on during no brake episode but then went off straight away. Headed off, very gingerly, to Bath Road BMW in Bristol to see if the could have a look and decide what the problem was. Half an hour before the main failure the brake the brake warning light came on for a second and then went off. I did test out the brakes on a number of occasions but as I was as far away as I intended to go there was nothing I could do but return home not thinking there was a major problem on its way.

On arriving at Bath Road BMW (at 4:00PM) and even with a couple of their staff on their hols they couldn't have been more helpful. It went straight on the ramp and they did a diagnostic check. Before the computor check, it appeared that when the rear brake pedal was depressed the servo unit didn't turn off even after letting go. It turned off when you pressed the handlebar brake.

The printout after the diagnostic check had 4 errors. Now they have to speak to someone at BMW to find out what the error codes are as they're not sure if it's the same problem repeated 4 times OR 4 seperate problems.

Unfortunately they can't fit the bike in for work until the 11th April although they did suggest I could try Ocean in Plymouth to see if they could do the work sooner but that would mean riding a bike with suspect brakes for a 2 hour ride down there! They also said they might need the bike for a few days (suggestion of replacing the servo unit) so I'm getting nervous that I won't be able to make Land's End.

It certainly was a hairy moment and a wake up call but at least there was no damage and the bike is fortunately still under warranty.

Now I'll have to cancel the rest of my leave as there's no point staying home with the bike in the garage and not being able to play.

BUGGER!!



Steve B

 

[Geezer]

BUGGER THAT THEY SAY THAT THE ABS SERVO BRAKES CAN'T FAIL ??????

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Not an 'urban myth' then............like some 'Doubting Thomas' reckon .............

Sorry to hear of your problems.........Steve

The very reason why I sold my Servo ABS bike.........last month

I sooner risk not having ABS on a GS..............than having to endure riding with another Servo ABS GS............with the potential 'no brake' scenario.

Servo on a bike !! It's all pants............!!!

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

BUGGER THAT THEY SAY THAT THE ABS SERVO BRAKES CAN'T FAIL ??????

Who says..............they don't fail???

 

[andy leett]

I had a similar problem last year, my dealer (rydales) replaced the whole ABS system, thankfully under warranty.

 

[DaveGSCymro]

I think what they mean when they say the brakes don't fail is that there is still some braking, basically a failsafe, just like cars have been for years. The brakes still work, but not as efficiently.

 

[Steve B]

I think what they mean when they say the brakes don't fail is that there is still some braking, basically a failsafe, just like cars have been for years. The brakes still work, but not as efficiently.

"...still some braking...?"
Sorry to disagree with you but there were NO brakes no matter how fecking hard I squeezed the lever.

Steve B

 

[DaveGSCymro]

"...still some braking...?"
Sorry to disagree with you but there were NO brakes no matter how fecking hard I squeezed the lever.

Steve B

That's what it says in the book...let me know how you get on...

 

[Steve B]

That's what it says in the book...let me know how you get on...

Aahhh! But do you believe everything you read in the papers too?
Hopefully it will be a quick solution and I'll gain back some of the confidence I lost on my freewheel escapade.
It just narks me that I daren't go out on it until it's resolved, even though the brakes appear to be 'back to normal' and the closest I'll get to it is pushing it in and out of the garage to clean it.

I'll let you know what transpires.

Steve B

 

[KAYCEE]

This seems to be getting a common subject in theads.

Has anyone taken the matter up direct with BMW GB, or even BMW Germany, and if so what was their written responce?

I understand that it is not just 1200GS's that are affected, having read that 1200C's had a problem. Can anyone confirm what other BM's are affected.

Since most of my riding is done with my 12 year old son on pillion, I am beginning to get concerned that I putting him at risk.

Kaycee

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

This seems to be getting a common subject in theads.

Has anyone taken the matter up direct with BMW GB, or even BMW Germany, and if so what was their written responce?

I understand that it is not just 1200GS's that are affected, having read that 1200C's had a problem. Can anyone confirm what other BM's are affected.

Since most of my riding is done with my 12 year old son on pillion, I am beginning to get concerned that I putting him at risk.

Kaycee

Steve B's bike is a 1150GS............Kaycee

 

[Steve B]

Steve B's bike is a 1150GS............Kaycee

Apologies for not clarifying that it is indeed a 2003 standard (standard as in I've added 1150.

Kaycee

Not sure there's any point going directly to BMW (yet). What are they going to say? "Oh yes we have a growing problem with servo/ABS brakes".
Not good advertising practice.
They'd also say go to your dealer first and let them have a look at it which I have duely done. Unfortunately, if there is a problem with servo brakes all the diagnostic checks in the world won't make it go away.

Steve B

 

[Arthurwg]

Brake Failure

Steve, I had virtually the same experience with my R12GS last summer. I've detailed that experience on this forum and Advrider. As I've said before, this happened to me at 85mph, and there was ABSOLUTELY NO RESIDUAL BRAKING AVAILABLE, as you said. The print-out showed multiple brake failure codes. Turned out that the battery cables were loose, because the tech guy who prepared the bike when new FAILED TO INCLUDE THE LOCK WASHERS on the battery terminals. OK, any system can fail, but I consider the lack of useful residual braking a potentially catastrophic design flaw. I ALSO BELIEVE THAT NO MOTORCYCLE NEEDS SERVO BRAKES.

 

[Captain Beaky]

I have to admit that I am not totally suprised to hear this.
The BMW system uses an electric motor to provide the energy for servo assistance. Thus, a simple electrical failure can cause complete loss of brake assistance.

The brakes are always a "no-nonsense" part on all cars & bikes (as is the steering and suspension). This is why all these systems haven't changed significantly in the last 40 years. Yes - there have been advances and innovations, but all cars use the same rack and pinion (or similarly archaic) system. Brakes are still hydraulic, suspension still springs and dampers (Citroen and BL break the mould here though).

While most cars use a servo, they are most often driven by the engine vacuum, or a simple and reliable vacuum pump on the alternator or camshaft (on diesels). Sone cars have a booster pump that builds the servo vacuum during cold start.

Some earlier ABS cars (Ford Granada from 85 onward, all Rangerovers, Jaguar XJ40 etc) do use an electric hydraulic pump to provide the servo assistance, but these will always provide a sufficient servo assistance, and illuminate a warning in the event of pump failure, and another in the event of the pressure dropping below the safe point.

What does suprise me is that there was no warning on the BMW ABS servo. Surely, the system should provide a BIG RED WARNING when the system has failed, and you should get a certain number of brake applications before the servo runs out of pressure???????

I think that it is important not to link this with the earlier non-servo ABS. With the earlier system, electrical failure will only result in loss of the ABS, not loss of the fundamental brakes.

Very worrying nevertheless.

I thnk I'll stick to my ABS non-servo 2001 1150GS.....

Or the cable brakes on my CCM, Can Am and CB250!!!!!

 

[Paul Wakefield]

Steve, How did the lack of braking manifest itself? Did the lever just come back to the bars with no effect or was there pressure on the lever but no braking?

Whichever it is, it seems the failure must be more than just loss of servo assistance if all braking is lost (I presume the servo can't divorce the lever completely from the brakes).


It also demonstrates there must be more than one type of failure since, when Mouse tried no servo braking, there was clear residual braking.


Paul

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Steve, How did the lack of braking manifest itself? Did the lever just come back to the bars with no effect or was there pressure on the lever but no braking?

Whichever it is, it seems the failure must be more than just loss of servo assistance if all braking is lost (I presume the servo can't divorce the lever completely from the brakes).


It also demonstrates there must be more than one type of failure since, when Mouse tried no servo braking, there was clear residual braking.


Paul

Paul......you ride a 1200GS don't you? So does Mouse

Well on the Servo 1150's (that Steve B rides) if the electric is off.......then you have sod all residual brake retardation..............try wheeling around a Servo 1150GS with the ignition off, next time you're at a dealers.

However on the 1200GS's there is definitely more residual brake retardation than the 1150GS's with the electric off.

Just try it and see the difference between an 1150 and a 1200GS.......you'll be amazed !!

Therefore it seems that they have engineered more residual brake retardation into the 1200GS

So you can't compare servo braking on 1200GS's and 1150GS's because the systems are subtely different in terms of braking feedback and residual brake retardation (with the electrics off)

Everybody makes sweeping statements about tests of residual brake retardation on the 1200's but the 1150 and 1200's are as different as 'chalk and cheese' in this respect.

Plus and it's a very big PLUS.............the 1150 GS is 30 kg heavier than a 1200GS and consequently, the GSA is even heavier still....probably 40-45kg heavier than a 1200GS with a full fuel load.

So the extra weight of the 1150's coupled with poorer residual brake retardation pressure will make a helluva difference on an 1150 over a 1200GS.............

 

[ELIMINATOR]

Brakes failed on my GS 1150 abs 2003 model, fortunately I was several feet from home. No warning, no brakes. ABS warning lights lit AFTER I had stopped. Bike sorted by SPC. BMW customer services phoned me and waffled. I suspect they did not write back to me, & phoned instead so that there would be no record of the dialogue.

 

[Paul Wakefield]

Thanks Johnny. I hadn't realised there was so much difference between the 1150 and 1200 systems - I had assumed they were the same (my 1150 was a pre servo version).

Paul

 

[Steve B]

Steve, How did the lack of braking manifest itself? Did the lever just come back to the bars with no effect or was there pressure on the lever but no braking?

Whichever it is, it seems the failure must be more than just loss of servo assistance if all braking is lost (I presume the servo can't divorce the lever completely from the brakes).


It also demonstrates there must be more than one type of failure since, when Mouse tried no servo braking, there was clear residual braking.


Paul

When I attempted to brake there was resistance on the brake lever but no effective braking.If you've ever had air in your cars brake pipes it the same feeling. Press on the brake pedal all you like they ain't going to work.
The red ABS warning light came on. (The guy at BMW dealership asked how long it was on for. Told him I wasn't really counting as my attention was distracted by the large van I was heading towards!).
As Johnny Boxer stated once the ignition is off you have the same effect. This happened every time I turned the bike around in the garage. Now I turn the ignition back on after stopping the engine so it helps me stop the bike when doing the 180 turn.

Funnily enough I intentionally went for an ABS model as I thought it would be safer. Did read mixed comments on here about having/not having ABS but being anal thought it would be safer to have than not. Maybe I should have tried a non ABS model. first. If/when I get a new ADV this will be a big consideration.

Steve B

 

[Arthurwg]

No Residual Brak

It would be nice to believe that the R1200GS has adequate residual braking when the servo malfunctions, as Johnny Boxer says. But that was certainly not my experience. I was traveling at 85mph when I saw the brake failure warning come on.