Brakes Failed Today!

[Paul Wakefield]

I agree it is the surprise which is dangerous and I also agree it is excellent advice to practice. However I don't think that answers Andy's question (which is one I am also interested in).

Does switching the ignition off (therefore no servo or ABS)accurately simulate the brake failures reported or are the brake failures more serious with an even greater or complete loss of residual braking?

Paul

 

[cattell]

Servo Brakes

I acn confirm that the K1200RS has hardly any brakes when the servo fails. I traded in for a non servo ABS Aventure

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

However I don't think that answers Andy's question (which is one I am also interested in).

Does switching the ignition off (therefore no servo or ABS)accurately simulate the brake failures reported or are the brake failures more serious with an even greater or complete loss of residual braking?

Paul

Hi Paul,

in my case, described in the German german motorbike mag "MO" BMW MOTORRÄDER NR. 13 Special Edition the brake failure seemed to me more serious.

I felt total brake failure at 100 mph. I was later told to speak about back-up hydraulic mode. In my case the brake either blocked or didn't brake at all. I was not able at all to modulate the brakes decently. No way.

Dr.

 

[ahutcheon]

Hi Paul,

in my case, described in the German german motorbike mag "MO" BMW MOTORRÄDER NR. 13 Special Edition the brake failure seemed to me more serious.

I felt total brake failure at 100 mph. I was later told to speak about back-up hydraulic mode. In my case the brake either blocked or didn't brake at all. I was not able at all to modulate the brakes decently. No way.

Dr.

For me, there are two questions here:

1) How effective is non-servo residual braking? Opinions seem to vary from "not great but it will stop you" through to "not good enough to push the bike around at walking pace".

2) Is there a failure mode that is worse than removing servo power?

The second one interests me, since for the first I can only decide myself whether I am happy. "Wheel locked or no braking" does not sound like the residual braking, but I'm not clear on whether other reported failures are the same?

Cheers,
Andy

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Two Questions from Andy

Hi Andy,

Replying you Question Nr. 1 there is a simple answer:

"Residual braking" is a "fully backup hydraulic function", but what you really end up with largely depends on your personal input. That may vary from rider to rider, and think of the lever position... The reason this may vary is obvious. Riders are not used to the failure mode. ---> MIRA Report

Now, remember the recall of the Mercedes electronic Brakes (SBC) last year, and read now about the Mercedes situation just in freshest news. You might be struck by how similar it all is.

As far as I know - according to German press sources like DER SPIEGEL - in case of the SBC brakes there have been "minor crashes". This are direct consequences of the implicatons of the ---> MIRA Report. This year Mercedes-Benz is preparing to conduct the biggest product recall in its history involving these brakes, just because the manufacturer has uncovered a small number of faults with the SBC (Sensotronic Brake Control) system that can leave the braking system functioning in its back-up hydraulic mode. In this mode, the driver will be warned by visual and acoustic signals and the travel of the braking pedal will be increased. Braking force available, however, remains well within legal requirements.

You see any similarity?

Replying you Question Nr. 2 there is no direct answer from me!

Bound to legal resrictions I have said what I have said, and that can be read (in german language) in "MO" BMW MOTORRÄDER No. 13. I could not modulate the brakes, they were either blocking, or not braking at all. I could not modulate the brakes. I won't ever ride such technology again.

Dr.


BMW R1150GS Adventure 03 I-ABS III

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

English translation rumored to be published by OTL shortly.

BMW Motorräder Nr. 13 ("MO")
International Orders welcome.

http://www.mo-web.de/mo_zeitschriften/sonderhefte_bmw.html


English translation rumored to be published by OTL shortly.

Source: Larry at i-bmw.com


NEWS:

Integrated ABS

Fantastic or fiasco? OTL follows the rumors and rhetoric in upcoming issues

Source: http://www.bmwra.org

 

[Arthurwg]

Dr. Brake. Can you please tell me who you are talking to at BMWOC in the USA? I'd like to report my brake failure experience to him directly. Thanks. Arthur

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Send your descripton of Brake Failure to OTL

Dr. Brake. Can you please tell me who you are talking to at BMWOC in the USA? I'd like to report my brake failure experience to him directly. Thanks. Arthur

Hi Arthur,

it's the BMW Riders Associaton, aka BMWRA (www.bmwra.org). You should directly write to the editor of OTL, Dr. Robert Hellman. His e-mail adress is listed here: Editor OTL.

I kindly ask you to send a copy of your report to the german mag "MO". Their e-mail adress is listed here: Redaktion MO.

And, please, I like to ask you to file a complaint to ODI. You are a US citizen and can do this. I'm German and can't do this: File a complaint

I like to ask and encourage everybody that suffered from brake failure to do the same, write to OTL (US) and to MO (Germany). If you are a US citizen, file a complaint at ODI.

UK citizens could also write to BMWRA Editor and MO Magazine, but shoud immediately contact both DfT (UK) and VOSA (UK)

Germans have no other option than to contact the DA in Munich (Staatsanwaltschaft München I – AZ: 255 JS 205 338 / 05), because both investigations are closed by the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Drivers in Flensburg/Germany.

Things are moving, if you do so! Nothin happens, if you are just bitchin' around at the boards. Encourage all riders you know that experienced brake failures to do so.

Dr.

 

[Bigmixer]

Dr.,
Your last point echos my question in an earlier post- has any one contacted BMW directly about this? I agree there is no point in just moaning to ourselves,
Bigmixer

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Dr.,
Your last point echos my question in an earlier post- has any one contacted BMW directly about this? I agree there is no point in just moaning to ourselves,
Bigmixer

Hello Bigmixer,

several people contacted BMW directly. Of course I only know the German situation. According to BMW there is no issue.

It might be really helpful to contact other than BMW, as I suggested.

Dr.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Hi,

several people are testing the "failure mode" and there are still concers that were adressed by some guys. I like to quote a statement from a moderator at advrider, that I admire for doing reasonable statments - in only two posts in this issue:

Full Quote:

I don't mean to throw a damper on your tests, and I'm sure they will provide some useful info. BUT, just turning the system on or off isn't the same as a system fault. AND since the system is still connected to the battery (independant of any key or switch) some of the system is still active.

Yes, sometimes the system will log faults but other times not... What I'm saying here is if the system IS going sideways (for a short time) there is no way to replicate this by simply switching the system off. There are just to many possible ways the system could act improperly. It is after all a computer based system and we all know thru our own experience how many ways a computer can act in a non-pleasant fashion.

Source: JJ

There is a reason I trust this theoretical statement. The reason i that I experienced brake failure several times as documented in "MO". And the reason is that I coudn't handle the so called backup hydraulic function. Either blocking, or not braking at all.

Dr.

 

[KAYCEE]

Possibly not linked at all, but I read in the Sunday Times that Mercedes are recalling 1.3 million (yes million) cars to sort out a number of problems.

One of the problems highlighted is a fault that causes "some vehicles to switch from their advanced electronic braking system into a"fail-safe" mode, which uses hydaulic brakes and means drivers have to press down harder on the brake pedal"

Would be interested to know the brake component manufacturer is the same as those that suplly BM.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Possibly not linked at all, but I read in the Sunday Times that Mercedes are recalling 1.3 million (yes million) cars to sort out a number of problems.

One of the problems highlighted is a fault that causes "some vehicles to switch from their advanced electronic braking system into a"fail-safe" mode, which uses hydaulic brakes and means drivers have to press down harder on the brake pedal"

Would be interested to know the brake component manufacturer is the same as those that suplly BM.

KAYCEE,

it's not the same manufacturer. Mercedes is a BOSCH system, as far as I remember, and BMW system is delivered by FTE Automotive. Of course both German manufactureres.

I see a link just like you. I have drawn to this point eleswhere. In Germany there have been crashes reported involving the SBC brakes of Mercedes.

Dr.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

There might be riders here that can read German. For those I have some articles on the subject ABS on BMW Motorbikes in a wider spectrum:

1. http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/04021004.htm
2. http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/04042902.htm
3. http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/04052701.htm
4. http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/04122011.htm
5. http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/05012002.htm

For those who can't read this German aticles - just ignore this post, and please don't feel annoyed.

 

[Steve B]

Well, took the bike down to CW's in Dorchester (left at 6:15am in the p*ssing rain) and now have a brand new AND modified servo unit installed. Don't ask me why BMW have modified the servos.
Used the new 2610 to get there and how I managed to get it right I'll never know!

They gave me an R850R to play with whilst they did the biz and to say the steering was heavy was an understatement! It didn't have ABS so another new experience making sure that I didn't lock the brakes in the wet. It made me realise that I do love my 1150.

THe weather picked up and pootled around Weymouth, Portland Bill and Chesel Beach for a few hours.

Took it easy on the way back (in the sunshine) as I'm still rebuilding confidence and I must admit I still tend to slam on the brakes, when it's safe, just to check.

At least now I can go out when I want but I have to miss Land's End due to business commitments (bugger!!).

It's really good to be back on two wheels though.

Steve B

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Steve,

... and now have a brand new AND modified servo unit installed. Don't ask me why BMW have modified the servos.

Well, you are obviously owning a BMW R1150GS. They may have replaced the servo unit with the newest generation that comes with the BMW R1200GS. As you may know the BMW R1200GS, BMW R1200ST, BMW K1200S and of course the RT have improved I-ABS III brakes (modulation / residual brake action).

My explanation could sound reasonable. Do you have now a better feeling with the brakes than before?

Dr.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

BMW CLUB (UK)

BMW CLUB (UK)

Servo Failure? (BarryM]

Quotes:

"Wheeled the bike from the garage this morning and started it. Pulled away up the drive way and the ABS light didn't go out!

Got to the end of the drive and NO BRAKES, I sailed gracefully out into the road, fortunately nothing coming - it's a quiet road.

I stopped the bike, and gave it a few seconds to reset and restarted again - still no brakes.

I repeated this a couple more times - no change.

I turned around and rode slowly the 200 yds back home, and during this time the brakes came back."


"My worst fears confirmed - 'No fault found or recorded'.

BVM are waiting for a call back from BMW right now, to see what they have to say.

I think I can guess.

So an unrepeatable fault. The fact it didn't record anything just means that they didn't write code that caught it.

Doesn't do much to inspire confidence<sigh>.

Anyone know how practical it would be to downgrade to the functionality of a R1100 ABS only system?"

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

weird stories about integral brakes – about one year before my incident!

There have been weird stories about integral brakes reported about one year before my incident!

I found that on a German BMW K-RS Board, of course the thread is in German language: Fast auf die Fresse geflogen ! Was ist das für ein ABS ?

The user 'maddi' is reporting about training with the I-ABS III brakes on his BMW K-RS about 40-50 km/h. He's reporting about long cycling intervals of the ABS and even about blocking (!) of the front brakes.

According to his next post on 08/25/2003 12:26 THEY found no error. He sold the bike. He nealy fell of the bike and couldn't find no more trust in the brakes.

This was just an episode to demonstrate, that riders are complaining about a long, long time.

Dr.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

Retrofit Conti Brakes?

In German forums there are thoughs about retrofit ('update ') with the new brakes from Continental Teves. Reason is, that riders were reading in the interview with "MO" BMW press officer announcing the next, improved brakes from Conti. I did some research of my own, and contacted 'External Communications' several times in this issue retrofit, at least on 20/12/2004 and 04/07/2005. So far I did not get any answer.

According to the German motorbike magazine TOURENFAHRER issue 02/2005 the Continental Brakes will be available in fall 2006.

Contact Persons Continental Automotive Systems

Dr.

 

[Dr.ABS Brake]

report about 'suddenly blocking brakes' on GS12

There's a report on the largest BMW GS Board in the German speaking community about I-ABS III Integral Brakes blocking on a BMW R1200GS:

Chrissy: "bei meiner GS war es nach 280km soweit, daß beim Kupplung ziehen beide Reifen blockiert haben "

Translation: After 280 km both wheels blocked when pulling the lever of the clutch.

Her buddy Udo is writing:

"Nach ca 280 km macht plötzlich schlagartig die bremse zu, es kommt zum Sturz, zum Glück hatte sie keine große Geschwindigkeit drauf, und es ist ihr nicht viel passiert, am Motorrad ca 2000.--€ Schaden. Es hat dann 6 Mann gebraucht um die Maschine mit noch blockierten Rädern von der Unfallstelle zu schaffen, dies gelang trotzdem nur indem sie die Fahrbahn nass machten. Ein Sachverständiger hat dann die Maschine untersucht, und stellte einen defekt am Bremskraftverstärker fest, glaub er hat zu gemacht. 4 Tage nach den Unfall machten die Bremsen wieder auf, Glück für sie das der Sachverständige die Maschine schon untersucht hatte, denke sonst hätte sie schlechte Karten."

Translation: Because of the blocking wheels they needed 6 man to pull the blocking GS from the street. But even they had to wet the street for that! An expert examined the bike and draw the conclusion: Defect of the I-ABS III unit. After four days the brakes did not block any more – lucky enough the expert examined the bike before.

Dr.