Clacks , Crunches, or cant get Neutral

[alp]

Yes I am that Bob, Who the heck were you?

Anyway, as I understand the problem.

I was told that there was not enough oil getting through to the clutch plates and as such the dry/dryish plates were sticking together - hence clutch drag. I believe that this happened on the early brick K series. The factory assembled the plates dry. The fix was to soak the plates overnight in oil. This was tried on my bike but failed to give a complete cure. Though it was a little better.

As I understand it, the replacement push rod was designed to allow more oil through the push rod bearings to the clutch plates. I was told that the push rod slides in a phosphor bronze tubes.

I saw the replacement rod.
It was about 100mm long and about 8mm in diameter
The bearing surfaces were of a greater diameter the overall rod and each bearing surface had 3 longitudinally groves ground into it to allow more oil through. The groves are shown in red on the diagram below. (The diagram is just a very quick knock up of what I remember and only approx relative proportions).

I was told that the old push rod had no groves, but I did not see the old one, so I don’t know if it was stepped.

At present my bike is better but it is not a complete cure. When I first got it, if you selected first, the bike would jump forward most of the time, but not always, sometimes it was perfect. It happened more when hot than cold. Maybe the oil spun off the plates when the engine was running making then dryer (?). Hence the not enough oil was getting through. If the push rod diameter was at the smaller end of the tolerance range more oil could get through, so not all bikes would have this problem.


SMB

Hi Bob, looks like we never end up at Ocean at the same time!

It's worrying that you were told and the push rod mod seems to confirm, that the theory is that there is too little oil getting to the clutch and yet BMW at Garmisch told me the opposite! I was told there was too much oil getting on the plates.
Hope mine gets fixed before another long tour which is scheduled for my bike at the end of July, I don't want the clutch drag causing problems in traffic like on the Garmisch tour.

 

[Nutty]

That's the bit i cant understand either.

The clutch and gearbox on the LC I had was problem free for the 2,500 miles I covered on it.

The only 'issue' was the loud crunch into 1st from neutral but neutral was always easy to find.

Yep, mine crunches into first, unless I hold the clutch in for a few seconds once the engine's hot. Neutral can occasionally take an attempt or two sometimes. The rest of the time, the box is super smooth.

Interestingly, the box on the HP2 doesn't clunk into first, and goes into neutral every time, but it does have a dry clutch.

 

[Emoto]

That's exactly what I've been measuring. Position 4 moves the cylinder push rod further in than the other lever setting positions when the clutch lever is pulled back to the bar grip. The difference is quite visual.
However, the clutch drag problem still exists on bikes set on position 4.

The eyes can sometimes be fooled. Have you measured it? I am interested in hearing how much farther in yours goes on 4 than 1 when actually measured.

 

[Captain Beaky]

Out and about on mine last night - its still quite tight - just about 140 miles on it now - and yes, the N to 1 is a bit err - lively lets say - but all the wet clutch bikes I've had do it so some extent. What's worse I think is the fact that you feel it so much through the driveshaft, as opposed to chain bikes that have cush drives that take out the clonk (to a certain extent).

 

[fennel]

I don't believe that the lever position has any affect on the distance of the stroke of the master cylinder piston, but will be interested in your test nonetheless.

Clutch lever adjustment made no difference in my case but taking the gear lever down did a little.

Also discovered a small oil leak from the left throttle body.

Starting to get disapointed...

 

[jonnyp]

The eyes can sometimes be fooled. Have you measured it? I am interested in hearing how much farther in yours goes on 4 than 1 when actually measured.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here Emoto. 2.25 - 2.35mm or approx 0.090" is the difference between position 1 and 4. 4 pushing the furthest in.

I set the position, strapped the leaver to the bar and measured across the housing to the back of the grub screw on the piston with a depth gauge. on pos 4 the distance is 3.25 mm and on pos 1 it's approx 1.00- 1.10mm.

I also note there is a grub screw in the end of the piston, this seems to be held by a locking screw (underneath with red witness paint on it) not sure if this would increase the piston travel.

My bike is fine so I'll leave that to someone else to try.

 

[Emoto]

I don't mind in the least. Thank you for providing the info! I will have to take another crack at measuring mine this evening and see if I get similar numbers. When I measured (albeit quickly) the other day, I did not spot a difference.

It seems insane to have a design that changes the amount of fluid displaced when you change the lever span.

 

[jonnyp]

Displacing fluid.... My guess is probably not. I would guess and it's only that but the piston would have probably reach full displacement before the leaver has touched the bar in any setting and there would be some travel left to stop it getting damaged.

If any thing I'd go with shortywilliam and think the clutch plates are not being spread far enough to break the meniscus of oil between them hence the drag and so a slave cylinder with a longer travel would do the job.

I don't want to get into the "what oil" scenario for obvious reason but I run a 67 tiger cub off road (well, when it's not in bits!) I can't run the clutch dry nor fully wet as both give problems - no oil and the clutch will burn out, use engine oil and it will slip, drag and never go in to gear!!!So I add a small amount of automatic transmission fluid... The clutch action on that is great...no drag and gear selection is ok, we'll for a 45 year old box!!

 

[alp]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here Emoto. 2.25 - 2.35mm or approx 0.090" is the difference between position 1 and 4. 4 pushing the furthest in.

I set the position, strapped the leaver to the bar and measured across the housing to the back of the grub screw on the piston with a depth gauge. on pos 4 the distance is 3.25 mm and on pos 1 it's approx 1.00- 1.10mm.

I also note there is a grub screw in the end of the piston, this seems to be held by a locking screw (underneath with red witness paint on it) not sure if this would increase the piston travel.

My bike is fine so I'll leave that to someone else to try.

Thanks for helping me out mate and confirming the measurement I posted yesterday. I was getting a bit tired of nipping into the garage to help clarify this for Emoto.

 

[Emoto]

Thanks for helping me out mate and confirming the measurement I posted yesterday. I was getting a bit tired of nipping into the garage to help clarify this for Emoto.

But your wife told me to keep you busy for a while so you'd get your exercise!

 

[alp]

But your wife told me to keep you busy for a while so you'd get your exercise!

Oh Oh, have I had my web cam on all this time?

I don't think we're brave enough to pull the master cylinder apart to delve any further into the GS cylinder but I did check my Ducati which has an open clutch and the pressure plate keeps moving out right to the point where the lever contacts the bar grip with no internal stop. Yes, it's a different bike without lever position settings but thought I'd look anyway for what it's worth.

 

[Emoto]

Oh Oh, have I had my web cam on all this time?

I don't think we're brave enough to pull the master cylinder apart to delve any further into the GS cylinder but I did check my Ducati which has an open clutch and the pressure plate keeps moving out right to the point where the lever contacts the bar grip with no internal stop. Yes, it's a different bike without lever position settings but thought I'd look anyway for what it's worth.

Its ok. I am across the pond and nothing I have would reach that far anyway.

Interesting about your Duc.

If our BMW clutches operate as you describe the Duc clutch, then having my hand lever all the way out on #4 should be helpful in getting a full disengagement when pulled in. Did you try it in both extreme positions and notice any difference in how the shifting felt?

 

[jonnyp]

Thanks for helping me out mate and confirming the measurement I posted yesterday. I was getting a bit tired of nipping into the garage to help clarify this for Emoto.

No problem with that, but you both have a point so I'd sit on the fence, yes pos 4 pushes the piston in more but I doubt it actually moves the plates any further apart. Without knowing the dimensions of both cylinders and the real stroke length we would need to uncover the clutch to measure the distance moved.

I'll butt out now and leave you two, to fight it out or get a room!!!!

 

[r1happy]

My bike was an early March one with nearly 3K now. I find the gearbox is fine and smooth apart from the clunk into 1st which most of the bikes that I have owned have done including my K1300. I always blip the throttle on down changes to match road speed to engine speed. I generally do clutch less changes going up the box. My mates 1200 hexhead won't entertain the latter at all.

I have had a 990SMT that was okay then had a 1200 Multistrada that was a huge disappointment. It suffered a flattened battery after a month caused by the weird starter/kill switch. This also wiped all the electronics and it spent a month in the shop trying to be sorted. The Exup type valve seized and was replaced and was starting to seize again just before I got rid. The rear caliper failed and was replaced. It was also very difficult to bleed as the nipple was on the bottom and once bled it would only last 10 days before it needed doing again. Invariably you had no back brake!!

I ride my GS with a permanent smile. It has enough power and the handling is brilliant and so comfortable. Its a better all round package than the KTM or the Multi and I can only see me replacing it with a newer one in years to come.

 

[jonnyp]

There does seem to be a trend here, early bikes built in March and early April are ok, late April and onwards have the issues.

I think it was the A team on the line of Jurgen, Horst and Heinrich that built them backed up but the QA and QC team. At the end of March they had built the first batch and fu@ked off to the beer Keller leaving some very nice chaps from a country next door to Germany where all the plumbers and chippies come from, to build the rest.

On the second hand market any bike advertised with a march build date will I'm sure command a much higher value!!!!

 

[Emoto]

Where's the tag with the build date located?

 

[jonnyp]

Where's the tag with the build date located?

You may be able to get an accurate build date from your dealer..

 

[Emoto]

Per the owner's manual:

Vehicle Identification
Number (on steering-head
bearing)
Type plate (on steeringhead
bearing)

If is is like my 2005, it'll have the build date, too.

Time to wander out to the garage and have a look, I think.

ETA: Nope, VIN only.

 

[fennel]

There does seem to be a trend here, early bikes built in March and early April are ok, late April and onwards have the issues.

I think it was the A team on the line of Jurgen, Horst and Heinrich that built them backed up but the QA and QC team. At the end of March they had built the first batch and fu@ked off to the beer Keller leaving some very nice chaps from a country next door to Germany where all the plumbers and chippies come from, to build the rest.

On the second hand market any bike advertised with a march build date will I'm sure command a much higher value!!!!

I got my bike in mid March and it has the worst transmission I've ever riden. Desperatly waiting for a fix.

 

[Giles]

I got mine mid June - it had been built only a week / ten days earlier.

It's absolutely fine.