Engine Pinking

[Kremmen]

It could well have been "pinking" due to a carbon build-up around the metal flame ring bonded/pressed onto the cylinder head gasket,

If this was a 1970 Austin 1100 with 40,000mls on the clock, then carbon build up could be considered as a reason for pinking.... but an 09 plate bike using modern fuels & oils .... i don't see carbon build up.

One of the problems with modern dealers car, truck or bike is that the old skill of fault diagnosis are long dead .... The only skill needed are to plug in a computer and believe categorically what it's telling you....

If gas was escaping past the flame ring.... why didn't anyone think of carrying out a basic, fundamental check of a compression test..

 

[gsman1]

ECU can be re mapped

ECU can be remapped mate had his done rcently as remus and headers bike was running dangerously weak

The ecu cannot be remapped but you can alter the fuelling with a boosterplug etc which fools the ecu into thinking the intake air is very cold so it adds a little more fuel. I have one on my 2008 GSA and it smooths it out at part throttle and makes it more rideable, not any more powerful. You can also fit a power commander and get it set up on a rolling road dyno for optimum fuelling under all throttle/load conditions.

I also have sports headers and a PC3USB ready in the garage, but they aren't getting fitted until my bikes warranty has expired.

Has the dealer checked the condition of your spark plugs and secondary coils ?? It sounds like you have a weak spark when the engine is under load.

 

[Goose]

Goo0sepilot,

Your pinking description is exactly what I experienced, maybe its not pinking at but the head gasket faulty.

Chris

I could understand that diagnosis on a bike that could perhaps be a couple of months old... however we bought 3 bikes off the showroom floor at the same time and all 3 started this crap before reaching 2000km..

How do you explain that one... ?

The funny thing is that we have now spent this weekend doing some serious offroading - will post a proper ride report which should show the type of terrain we were riding.

Outside temp was:

Day 1 - 18deg C
Day 2 - 33deg C
Day 3 - 38deg C

Day 1 - minimal pinking
Day 2 - technical riding minimal pinking
Day 3 - higher speed tar riding on the way home - pinking at 100 - 120km/hr and reaching our home destination, a couple of hills as around 60km/hr in 4th gear - radical pinking....... in fact both bikes that went on the trip was so bad that the pillions even suggested we stop and they walk?

PUKMEISTER - you suggested Carbon build-up, which on such new bikes I'd beg to differ - however mate the lean mixture could possibly cause that as well.
Why I say so is that we rode on the freeway some time ago. A constant 120km/hr for around 10 minutes. I then wanted to overtake a large truck and opened the throttle on the bike........ well bloody hell did I get a fright!
A helluva load bang was heard in the engine and a ruddy big cloud of black smoke emitted from my exhaust. My mate radiod me and asked whether I'd locked the back wheel or something.... it was really bad.

Diagnosis by a couple of chaps seemed to indicate that the extra fuel with the throttle turn caused the carbon in the chamber to ignite - hence the bang and black smoke. My RPM was around 4500 - which according to some of the blokes is the critical engine speed where all hell breaks loose and the setting to avoid.

Given that 18 odd 1200 GS/GSA engines self-destructed with heads blowing off.............. I'd consider this quite serious!

 

[Pukmeister]

Goose, the carbon you saw ejected from your bike is most likely the soot from the inside of the exhaust tract as the detonating air/fuel mixture blew it out.

If the detonation is not due to a carbon build up then my guess is your mixture is way too lean and very prone to detonation, which is further affected by an increase in intake air temperature (obviously its hot in SA).

The GS has an air intake temperature sensor as part of the fuel injection for self-adjustment, have you tried adding one of the relatively inexpensive fuel injection temperature adjusters eg boosterplug/accelerator module? A little more fuel may reduce or eliminate the detonation.

High-speed detonation is a known cause of catastrophic engine failure, I would be very keen to get this problem sorted before mechanical damage is caused. I hope your dealer can sort it out soon.

 

[Goose]

Goose, the carbon you saw ejected from your bike is most likely the soot from the inside of the exhaust tract as the detonating air/fuel mixture blew it out.

If the detonation is not due to a carbon build up then my guess is your mixture is way too lean and very prone to detonation, which is further affected by an increase in intake air temperature (obviously its hot in SA).

The GS has an air intake temperature sensor as part of the fuel injection for self-adjustment, have you tried adding one of the relatively inexpensive fuel injection temperature adjusters eg boosterplug/accelerator module? A little more fuel may reduce or eliminate the detonation.

High-speed detonation is a known cause of catastrophic engine failure, I would be very keen to get this problem sorted before mechanical damage is caused. I hope your dealer can sort it out soon.

My friend you have hit the nail right on the head.

THIS is exactly what we have been telling BMW from the first month we got our bikes - in Dec 2009

THEY say sorry nothing wrong, it's normal, and to date we have not been able to get any positive feedback from them.
Our concern is for the damage it's causing to the engines at the moment - it is definitely running far too lean 14.7:1 for our conditions.

Tried the Accelerator/Booster plug - no difference due to the fact that the Lamda probes check the exhaust mixture and counteract the booster plug's work.

We are told that if the engine fails - BMW-AG will replace it... under warranty... but FFS - there's only a year left on my new warranty and what if it fails out-of-warranty............. what if we have catastrophic failure with the wives on the back... at high speed?
There's been one bike that had a dead-seize at 130km/hr..... and the rider catapulted from his bike... what happens then...? And if the engine blows - at speed and oil gets deposited all over the road..... what control have I or for that matter my mate behind me got to manoeuvre the bike through the oil...?



We have tried - really tried to get BMW SA to respond or assist.... NOTHING...!

So where do we turn? Who do we get help from....?


I LOVE my bike... man the road we rode this weekend - I have new respect for the machine..... but I just want it to work correctly.

So if ANYONE has a contact at BMW-AG I would be ever so grateful to get it resolved....

 

[Pukmeister]

Our concern is for the damage it's causing to the engines at the moment - it is definitely running far too lean 14.7:1 for our conditions.

Tried the Accelerator/Booster plug - no difference due to the fact that the Lamda probes check the exhaust mixture and counteract the booster plug's work.

Fair comment about the booster plug and part-throttle. I guess the only other way is to fit a power commander 3 and remove the lambdas and get it set up on a rolling road dyno, or fit a power commander 5 and auto-tune kit. Theres also a post here somewhere about a remap by a UK agent, but never seen that done on the 1200 yet, nobody in SA that can do it ??

I guess fitting a PC3 or PC5 may well invalidate your warranty but a PC3 is easy to fit and just as easy to remove (got a PC3 and sports headers sat in the garage myself, not fitting them until my bike is out of makers warranty).

14.7:1 is stoichiometric combustion and although theoretically perfect for complete combustion, in practice is too lean.

My sympathy regarding having your hands tied by BMW internal politics, it must be frustrating.

EDIT: As an afterthought, would it be worth asking the boys over in Stellenbosch at Hexcode (makers of GS911) by email or phone if they can shed any light on this, or perhaps give you a contact within BMW as I think they work pretty closely with them. They may even have experience with the same problem.

http://www.hexcode.co.za/contact-us-1

 

[The smudger]

Eureka, finally got it back today and the pinking seems to have gone. except it now seems it wasn't actually pinking.

The dealer didn't do anything after replacing the head, he just went for a run and phoned me to say the 'pinking' had gone.

The dealers conclusion was it was the head gasket that had failed and the noise like glass/pinking I had heard coming from the left hand pot under load was obviously the head gasket under pressure.

Maybe it wasn't totally passing as there is no evidence of carbon on the mating surfaces. Maybe the gasket was partial passing causing the pressure to drop.

The dealer advised me he had never heard of the head gasket failing before, so he assumes it must have just been a faulty gasket.



Utter B0ll0cks.............

 

[Packer]

As the 12's are I believe fitted with anti-knock sensors these should cause the ignition to retard until the knocking stops. I'm sure I've read that you can put 80 Octane (European scale) in these things and they'll compensate. If the sensors are OK and it's still pinking it isn't the ignition but spontaneous detonation due to something glowing red hot in the combustion chamber.

Try and blow the engine up, that may be what it takes to get a response from BMW.

Failing that chop them in and buy something else. Plummeting sales may also make someone take notice. Well maybe

 

[arrybash]

There was quiet a lot of carbon build up on mine when I saw it in the dealers with the head of.

More than I would have expected for 9,000 miles. What I don't know is if the dealer removed the carbon before he put the head back (probably doesn't know how to as the computer wouldn't have that in the software).

Chris

 

[The smudger]

Chris, sorry to sound negative with my "Utter B0ll0cks" comment but i definately do not see a leaking head gasket causing pre ignition/detonation.

My guess, and its not meant to offend or to p1ss on anyones fire, is that they removed all the carbon build up and replaced the head. If theres no carbon there to detonate.......

There is of course a down side if this is the case..........

 

[dongleplonk]

I would agree with Smudger. They are pulling your chain mate. They have probably cleaned up the head and so temporarily stopped the pinking. It will therefore return no doubt.

I've got the same problem on a 2011 GS1200 adv. Left side pinking. The bike has been in once to fix it and they said it was the exhaust flap and they replaced it. When the bike was returned, the pinking had all but nearly gone.

But I just filled up with Shell VPower fuel and it's pinking like crazy. Awful noise.

I'm going to send the bike back using BMW recovery and tell them to replace the knock sensors, replace the secondary coils and the spak plugs for the left hand cylinder.

My problem will be if they disagree with my request claiming nothing is wrong. Then a dispute will ensue.

PITA.

 

[dongleplonk]

Hey Smudger & Chris - get this...

I sent the bike back as I said I would do. The message that came back from Service is...

..you guessed it...

A blowing head gasket!!!!!!

Ha.

I neither cannot understand for the life of me why a blowing head gasket would cause pre-ignition. Makes me wonder if they are applying a fix they want to hide from us and blaming the head gasket. If that is the case - I don't really care as long as it's fixed and doesn't come back.

Losing my patience a little though.

 

[duckspeed]

Does super unleaded make any difference, may just prove the point? would not like to think of you chasing a pinking fault when in fact it may be something else.

 

[dongleplonk]

Hi Duckspeed

If I put ordinary unleaded in (95 RON) the pinking noise is still there but diminished. If I put Shell VPower in it (99 RON) the pinking is so bad you think there is something wrong with the engine.

With 99RON you can barely accelerate at 1/4 power without introducing pinking.

So yes, Super Unleaded (97/98/99RON) does make a significant difference.

Thats whats odd about it. The higher the RON, the less it should be pre-ignition/pinking.

Annoying as the knock sensors retard the engine and it become sluggish just as you get into 3rd gear.

If someone can explain why a blowing head gasket could cause pinking I'd appreciate it!

 

[cookie]

If someone can explain why a blowing head gasket could cause pinking I'd appreciate it!

it's sucking in air

ps. i've run my 2 GSAs on 95 and very occasionally 97/98 and there's no discernible difference.

 

[dongleplonk]

Cookie - you're a genius!

Makes it leaner right?

Ahhhh. Me understands now.

I'll see if the Service department who are currently fixing a blowing head gasket comprehend this.

Thanks Cookie.

 

[skywalker]

Seen a couple of 1200's know with leaking inlet manifolds on the right hand cylinder. 1100/1150 leak on the left. It will show up when doing a lamda sensor test. Simples

 

[dongleplonk]

Supposed to have been fixed yesterday for collection tomorrow but not had the call yet. So maybe there are complications. I'll let you know if the 'blowing head gasket' resolves the problem.

 

[dongleplonk]

Sh1t. Blowing head gasket fixed it!

Now it's fast as you like. No more knock sensors retarding the engine.

Let's see how it goes.

 

[jeff]

Hey Smudger & Chris - get this...

I sent the bike back as I said I would do. The message that came back from Service is...

..you guessed it...

A blowing head gasket!!!!!!

Ha.

I neither cannot understand for the life of me why a blowing head gasket would cause pre-ignition. Makes me wonder if they are applying a fix they want to hide from us and blaming the head gasket. If that is the case - I don't really care as long as it's fixed and doesn't come back.

Losing my patience a little though.

So the dealer diagnosed the problem correctly and fixed it. Worthy of a bit of praise?