Exhaust valve, poor cold starting 1200

I said I wouldn’t post anymore but with a few exceptions there is some bollocks in this thread.

The flap is for noise reduction at low rpm/throttle openings to meet EU drive by noise regulations.
The flap may also help the cat come up to temp quickly - depending on various inputs (outside temp, engine temp etc)
The flap doesn’t control mixture - it would influence it on a carbed or very primitive FI engine but not on a modern engine.

The exhaust does not run at less pressure than the intake/cylinder when the engine is delivering anything (ever).

Engineers flap may have caused his issue but not as a result of a physical action but more as a result of the ECU not seeing something that it wanted to see from somewhere on the engine.

Fuel systems are seen as critical so therefore operate on a closed loop system, meaning that when a sensor fails or it see’s something it doesn’t like it doesn’t stop the engine and strand the rider/driver but rather adopts different parameters based on some assumptions or a rough calculation using info from other sensors to make an educated guess. This way it protects the engine but still allows motion. It will of course stop the engine if it cannot apply a safety option or sees something it really doesn’t like.
 
Like I said, I'd check the operation of the Exhaust flap on my 1250. Just keep in mind that the 1250 is using a Wideband O2 sensor rather than the Narrowband type used on all previous models. This makes a difference to how much the Ecu relies on feedback fro the sensor, as the WB sensor has a quicker response and a more accurate reading. Additionally, the 1250 has a #3 sensor placed after the Cat. This is a NB sensor.

I have used the GS911 for reading, and I've been recording the Coolant temperature, RPM, Voltage from the #3 sensor, Flap position and the O2 factor for each cylinder.

The NB sensor, when cold, offers no output. It acts as if it is not there. When warmed up it will offer a reading of 0 - 1 V, where 1 volt is very rich, and low volt is lean. Rich and lean in this contex is richer or leaner than AFR 14,7. The WB sensor works totally different, and it does not offer a direct voltage reading. The signal needs processing before a reading may be made. GS911 does not offer such a readout. The closest we may get out of it is the O2 factor. This is a percentage of extra fuel added to the amount decided by the mapping. The amount decided by mapping, temperature etc is multiplied with this factor, so anything above 1.0 will add fuel, while anything below fuel will subtract fuel compared, and it is based on the O2 sensor feedback.

A couple of lines in the readout offers extremely different values. I think this is a signal error picked up by GS911 and should be ignored.

Ok Here goes:

This is the table while engine is warming up. The first column is the time, recording seconds from start of recording. I have edited the table to show the readings in two main columns, where the second one continues from the first one. check the Time column, and it makes sense.

51055487463_5103990a53_o.jpg


As you can see, the coolant temperature starts at 55 degrees. That is because I screwed up my first reading, and by then, the engine was a bit warmed up.

What the table does not show is the min and max value of the Flap position. When powering up, the flap is cycled. GS 911 is too slow to pick it up, but the main point is: When the flap hits the Closed mechanical stop it reads 10%, and wide open is somewhere around 57%.

Engine is started around time marker 30 seconds, and we can see that the flap immediately flips open to 52,85%. That is very near full open, which is around 57. At this point, the O2 sensors are cold, and offers no feedback. Hence, the ECU offers a default value of 1,22 and 1,13 for richening the fuel, to be on the safe side.
But already 3 seconds later, the flap goes towards a bit closer, 43,35%. But this is still 2/3 open, and show clearly that my theory that the flap contributes to active affect the fueling does not hold water. We can also see that while the O2 correction factor now is approaching 1, the Lambda voltage from the #3 is still way above 1 (meaning it is still cold, and the higher voltage is probably a bias voltage injected by the ECU, helping to identify a faulty O2 sensor. This is probably what screwed up the AF-XIED back in 2016).

At time marker 44,938 (14 S after engine start) the Lambda voltage falls below 1 showing that the #3 sensor has warmed up. The O2 correction factor is now just slightly above 1.0, meaning that the two WB sensors are also in the loop by now. In fact, if we scroll back, we can see that the O2 correction factor dropped from the default number already 4 seconds after start, while the #3 NB sensor is still warming up.

We also see that now, the Lambda voltage rapidly drops towards 0,2 and below. This indicates that the exhaust leaving the CAT is starved by excessive oxygen, meaning the Cat is doing it's job.

The remaining table shows that the engine is now warming up with a steady 2/3 open flap, the fueling is sharply controlled by feedback from the WB sensors (O2 correction factor), and the cat is working.


Then over to the table for warm engine:

51056215441_70fbf7eb51_o.jpg


At idle, the flap has now closed slightly more, the cat works, and the mapping needs hardly any correction by the WB O2 sensors.

The interesting part here is that when bringing up the RPM passed 4K, the flap starts to close, and at 6K the flap is fully closed to the stopper (at 10%).

This again points towards all noise and no active emission control.

By now, you got the hang of the numbers, so no further comments may be required from my part.


We may conclude that the flap is controlled actively by the ECU, and noise control seems to be the main target.

This, however does not mean that the closing/opening of the flap does not affect the fueling. It means that the ECU is capable of handling it.

We may also learn that the NB sensor is slower to react than the WB sensor.

Even if the flap is most likely not part of the emission control, it will still affect the fueling.

Back in the days of the carburetor changing the muffler meant re-jetting to compensate. So we know the restriction in the exhaust system affects the power output and fueling. (Why else spend money on de-cating? And de-cating meant the engines would run lean, back in the days before adaptive ECU).

This leads us to conclude that especially when the engine is cold (needing more fuel), if the flap does not match the preprogrammed position, this may affect the pre programmed fueling before the O2 sensors are able to catch up and compensate, meaning the first 10 - 15 seconds after startup for the 1200, while much quicker on the 1250.

And again. This are readings for the 1250, while the thread started out debating the 1200.
 
Like I said, I'd check the operation of the Exhaust flap on my 1250. Just keep in mind that the 1250 is using a Wideband O2 sensor rather than the Narrowband type used on all previous models. This makes a difference to how much the Ecu relies on feedback fro the sensor, as the WB sensor has a quicker response and a more accurate reading. Additionally, the 1250 has a #3 sensor placed after the Cat. This is a NB sensor.

I have used the GS911 for reading, and I've been recording the Coolant temperature, RPM, Voltage from the #3 sensor, Flap position and the O2 factor for each cylinder.

The NB sensor, when cold, offers no output. It acts as if it is not there. When warmed up it will offer a reading of 0 - 1 V, where 1 volt is very rich, and low volt is lean. Rich and lean in this contex is richer or leaner than AFR 14,7. The WB sensor works totally different, and it does not offer a direct voltage reading. The signal needs processing before a reading may be made. GS911 does not offer such a readout. The closest we may get out of it is the O2 factor. This is a percentage of extra fuel added to the amount decided by the mapping. The amount decided by mapping, temperature etc is multiplied with this factor, so anything above 1.0 will add fuel, while anything below fuel will subtract fuel compared, and it is based on the O2 sensor feedback.

A couple of lines in the readout offers extremely different values. I think this is a signal error picked up by GS911 and should be ignored.

Ok Here goes:

This is the table while engine is warming up. The first column is the time, recording seconds from start of recording. I have edited the table to show the readings in two main columns, where the second one continues from the first one. check the Time column, and it makes sense.

51055487463_5103990a53_o.jpg


As you can see, the coolant temperature starts at 55 degrees. That is because I screwed up my first reading, and by then, the engine was a bit warmed up.

What the table does not show is the min and max value of the Flap position. When powering up, the flap is cycled. GS 911 is too slow to pick it up, but the main point is: When the flap hits the Closed mechanical stop it reads 10%, and wide open is somewhere around 57%.

Engine is started around time marker 30 seconds, and we can see that the flap immediately flips open to 52,85%. That is very near full open, which is around 57. At this point, the O2 sensors are cold, and offers no feedback. Hence, the ECU offers a default value of 1,22 and 1,13 for richening the fuel, to be on the safe side.
But already 3 seconds later, the flap goes towards a bit closer, 43,35%. But this is still 2/3 open, and show clearly that my theory that the flap contributes to active affect the fueling does not hold water. We can also see that while the O2 correction factor now is approaching 1, the Lambda voltage from the #3 is still way above 1 (meaning it is still cold, and the higher voltage is probably a bias voltage injected by the ECU, helping to identify a faulty O2 sensor. This is probably what screwed up the AF-XIED back in 2016).

At time marker 44,938 (14 S after engine start) the Lambda voltage falls below 1 showing that the #3 sensor has warmed up. The O2 correction factor is now just slightly above 1.0, meaning that the two WB sensors are also in the loop by now. In fact, if we scroll back, we can see that the O2 correction factor dropped from the default number already 4 seconds after start, while the #3 NB sensor is still warming up.

We also see that now, the Lambda voltage rapidly drops towards 0,2 and below. This indicates that the exhaust leaving the CAT is starved by excessive oxygen, meaning the Cat is doing it's job.

The remaining table shows that the engine is now warming up with a steady 2/3 open flap, the fueling is sharply controlled by feedback from the WB sensors (O2 correction factor), and the cat is working.


Then over to the table for warm engine:

51056215441_70fbf7eb51_o.jpg


At idle, the flap has now closed slightly more, the cat works, and the mapping needs hardly any correction by the WB O2 sensors.

The interesting part here is that when bringing up the RPM passed 4K, the flap starts to close, and at 6K the flap is fully closed to the stopper (at 10%).

This again points towards all noise and no active emission control.

By now, you got the hang of the numbers, so no further comments may be required from my part.


We may conclude that the flap is controlled actively by the ECU, and noise control seems to be the main target.

This, however does not mean that the closing/opening of the flap does not affect the fueling. It means that the ECU is capable of handling it.

We may also learn that the NB sensor is slower to react than the WB sensor.

Even if the flap is most likely not part of the emission control, it will still affect the fueling.

Back in the days of the carburetor changing the muffler meant re-jetting to compensate. So we know the restriction in the exhaust system affects the power output and fueling. (Why else spend money on de-cating? And de-cating meant the engines would run lean, back in the days before adaptive ECU).

This leads us to conclude that especially when the engine is cold (needing more fuel), if the flap does not match the preprogrammed position, this may affect the pre programmed fueling before the O2 sensors are able to catch up and compensate, meaning the first 10 - 15 seconds after startup for the 1200, while much quicker on the 1250.

And again. This are readings for the 1250, while the thread started out debating the 1200.

That is interesting but there is some contradiction..

Also you compare a modern fuel system with a carbed system in terms of the effect of removing a restriction in the exhaust, they are completely different and can’t be compared or used to reinforce a point - remember you used to have to reject for altitude as well - FI compensates...

Also when you talk about emissions you don’t seem to be aware that noise is an emission and is a major consideration when fuel maps are written.
 
That is interesting but there is some contradiction..

Also you compare a modern fuel system with a carbed system in terms of the effect of removing a restriction in the exhaust, they are completely different and can’t be compared or used to reinforce a point - remember you used to have to reject for altitude as well - FI compensates...

True. But my point is: A change of flow through the pipes will affect the fueling, Ie, for a cold engine, without the benefit of O2 sensor, the fueling rely on the predetermined setting, and this setting is based on a given flow, where the flow will be affected by the Flap. If then, the flap does not enter the expected position, this will to a certain degree cause a different flow, which would require a different fueling. And this different fueling will not happen before the O2 sensors are warmed up, which will be 10 -15 sec for the NB sensor. Hence at a short periode of time, the fueling would not match the flow (and amount of oxygen filling the cylinder)
 
I said I wouldn’t post anymore but with a few exceptions there is some bollocks in this thread

The exhaust does not run at less pressure than the intake/cylinder when the engine is delivering anything (ever).

.

For someone who claims to know a lot you clearly do not understand scavenging. You seem to forget 2 very obvious facts.

1 . Gas always flow from high to low pressure. It cannot flow the other way period.

2. the exhaust gasses are flowing in the same direction as the intake so the outgoing pressure means diddly squat to scavenging other than the level of pull it generates. The back pressure is the resistance to flow that matters and runs around 1.5 psi which something like 0.1 bar. You cannot scavenge a cylinder if the pressure exerted against the incoming charge is higher than the charge itself. It’s a mathematical impossibility.

Alter the back pressure and you alter the fuel entering the cylinder by design or accident. An exhaust flap cannot be benign in that respect.
 
More information.

Today after cleaning the bike I decided to delve a little deeper into the exhaust/flap thingy.

When the ignition is switched on - the flap cycles from fully open to fully closed and back to fully open.

As soon as the started is pressed - the flap goes to the 3/4 closed position and stays there while the motor is idling.

Increase the engine speed to approx 2,000 r.pm - flap goes to approx 50% open.

Increase revs to approx 3,000 rpm - flap fully open.


Conclusion.

The exhaust flap thing is most definitely connected to cold starting, i.e. creating some back pressure. This explains why when I had the cold start (<5C) problem I had to hold the throttle open for approx 30 seconds before the bike would idle correctly without stalling.

The exhaust flap is an integral part of the engine management/fuelling system and nothing to do with noise control - if it was noise control then it wouldn't be opening at such low revs.

P.S. my bike is a 2018 R1200GS Rallye TE.
 
Question - At what revs does the V5 specify the noise level? Has anyone got theirs to hand? - I thought it was 3750 rpm? If so, the flap is wide open and will have no effect on noise.
 
More information.

Today after cleaning the bike I decided to delve a little deeper into the exhaust/flap thingy.

When the ignition is switched on - the flap cycles from fully open to fully closed and back to fully open.

As soon as the started is pressed - the flap goes to the 3/4 closed position and stays there while the motor is idling.

Increase the engine speed to approx 2,000 r.pm - flap goes to approx 50% open.

Increase revs to approx 3,000 rpm - flap fully open.


Conclusion.

The exhaust flap thing is most definitely connected to cold starting, i.e. creating some back pressure. This explains why when I had the cold start (<5C) problem I had to hold the throttle open for approx 30 seconds before the bike would idle correctly without stalling.

The exhaust flap is an integral part of the engine management/fuelling system and nothing to do with noise control - if it was noise control then it wouldn't be opening at such low revs.

P.S. my bike is a 2018 R1200GS Rallye TE.

Agree mostly, except it is deffo part of noise control, maybe just not solely on bikes with stricter emissions regs. The fact it closes 3/4 outside of noise testing zones says something.

What’s unclear is the purpose of it partly closing. Although any change in back pressure has an affect, how much change occurs from that valve movement and is it enough to make any meaningful difference. I suspect popping a lambda or using a take off point to measure the back pressure will tell you.

Knut might be able to observe some change in ecu feedback that might help
 
Question - At what revs does the V5 specify the noise level? Has anyone got theirs to hand? - I thought it was 3750 rpm? If so, the flap is wide open and will have no effect on noise.

Don’t know what the v5 refers too but not as straightforward as that now for e5 regs. There are tests that are static at approx 50% max rpm and a rolling test at 50kmh which measures overall noise emissions between 2 mics a specific distance apart. I think the logic is to measure approaching noise and departing noise.

I believe the rolling test involves wot up to a point and a closed throttle from then on. The logic being if it was just speed related you would roll past in 6th at 1500 rpm.
 
Don’t know what the v5 refers too but not as straightforward as that now for e5 regs. There are tests that are static at approx 50% max rpm and a rolling test at 50kmh which measures overall noise emissions between 2 mics a specific distance apart. I think the logic is to measure approaching noise and departing noise.

I believe the rolling test involves wot up to a point and a closed throttle from then on. The logic being if it was just speed related you would roll past in 6th at 1500 rpm.

Well the flap is wide open at 50% rpm so it can't possibly control the noise for the static test. It can only have an effect on noise below 2,000 rpm when its almost fully closed - so that doesn't add up.
 
For detailed readings, using GS911 is a bit on the slow side, even if the recording may be speeded up compared to what I did. (But no matter what, it will be slow compared to direct readings such as digital scopes that even in slow mode samples 50 000 readings pr seconds.)

Amongst different chores for the Flap, have a look at the chart for a warm engine. Around time 28 seconds I flipped the throttle and revd it up to > 5k and then closed the throttle. The Flap then for a short periode went to almost closed (18%). If I should make a guess, this is done in order to stop the popping in the exhaust. The popping may well be an environmental problem, but I think the unburnt gases that cause the popping is also hurts the cat. So.. even if the valve for the most part is a 'noise fixer' I suspect it is also used to solve other issues.

My point is: If the flap is stuck, don't just ignore it.
 
Well the flap is wide open at 50% rpm so it can't possibly control the noise for the static test. It can only have an effect on noise below 2,000 rpm when its almost fully closed - so that doesn't add up.

50% is halving the pipe bore size.

Remember that the tests involve a wot throttle and a closed throttle segment. Pipes tend to pop on the overrun etc on a closed throttle when they lean right off.
 
50% is halving the pipe bore size.

Remember that the tests involve a wot throttle and a closed throttle segment. Pipes tend to pop on the overrun etc on a closed throttle when they lean right off.

50% rpm i.e. 4750 rpm, not flap 50% open, the flap is 100% open above 3,000 rpm.
 
For detailed readings, using GS911 is a bit on the slow side, even if the recording may be speeded up compared to what I did. (But no matter what, it will be slow compared to direct readings such as digital scopes that even in slow mode samples 50 000 readings pr seconds.)

Amongst different chores for the Flap, have a look at the chart for a warm engine. Around time 28 seconds I flipped the throttle and revd it up to > 5k and then closed the throttle. The Flap then for a short periode went to almost closed (18%). If I should make a guess, this is done in order to stop the popping in the exhaust. The popping may well be an environmental problem, but I think the unburnt gases that cause the popping is also hurts the cat. So.. even if the valve for the most part is a 'noise fixer' I suspect it is also used to solve other issues.

My point is: If the flap is stuck, don't just ignore it.

Indeed a stuck flap had a bad effect on my bike.
 
50% rpm i.e. 4750 rpm, not flap 50% open, the flap is 100% open above 3,000 rpm.

I mis read you reply but the rest applies. Noise testing is not static or at a fixed rpm. That’s track day/plod type noise testing.
 
For detailed readings, using GS911 is a bit on the slow side, even if the recording may be speeded up compared to what I did. (But no matter what, it will be slow compared to direct readings such as digital scopes that even in slow mode samples 50 000 readings pr seconds.)

Amongst different chores for the Flap, have a look at the chart for a warm engine. Around time 28 seconds I flipped the throttle and revd it up to > 5k and then closed the throttle. The Flap then for a short periode went to almost closed (18%). If I should make a guess, this is done in order to stop the popping in the exhaust. The popping may well be an environmental problem, but I think the unburnt gases that cause the popping is also hurts the cat. So.. even if the valve for the most part is a 'noise fixer' I suspect it is also used to solve other issues.

My point is: If the flap is stuck, don't just ignore it.

Knut, could the flap be used for any volume matching do you think. Along the line of exup systems etc ?
 
For someone who claims to know a lot you clearly do not understand scavenging. You seem to forget 2 very obvious facts.

1 . Gas always flow from high to low pressure. It cannot flow the other way period.

2. the exhaust gasses are flowing in the same direction as the intake so the outgoing pressure means diddly squat to scavenging other than the level of pull it generates. The back pressure is the resistance to flow that matters and runs around 1.5 psi which something like 0.1 bar. You cannot scavenge a cylinder if the pressure exerted against the incoming charge is higher than the charge itself. It’s a mathematical impossibility.

Alter the back pressure and you alter the fuel entering the cylinder by design or accident. An exhaust flap cannot be benign in that respect.

I don't disagree with what you have said but you have to remember that the intake is at atmospheric pressure and the piston draws the charge in by means of the reduced pressure in the cylinder caused by the intake stroke. The exhaust charge escapes the cylinder as the exhaust valve opens and is then helped by the exhaust stroke.

If you want to say that the exhaust pressure is less than the pressure in the cylinder as the charge compresses or after combustion then i will agree with you but what was being suggested was the residual exhaust pressure was less than the pressure of the incoming combustion charge, this is incorrect and more so as you increase the number of cylinders.

By the way, I never claimed to know a lot :comfort
 
Knut, could the flap be used for any volume matching do you think. Along the line of exup systems etc ?

Could you pleas elaborate please. I don't quite understand the question. (Remember, I'm a foreigner :D)
 
It’s probably worth considering that all the tests/checks have been done in a no load situation, whereas the emissions regs will define noise (& other emissions) at various %ages of max engine speed with specific engine loads.

I’m not sure how it is for a small petrol engine but for a high speed diesel its a grid of load & engine speed with (I think) 9 points where regs have to be met, for euro 4 it was 1 point at 75% max engine speed so the OE fuel maps generally had a huge dip at that point with anything goes either side.
 
A fascinating subject and none of us here have a complete understanding of what this flappy thing does :)
 


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