First Service

[spoonz]

The very same text re non dealer servicing is in the Ducati warranty terms. They still refused my radiator on the basis of a non dealer fork oil change. ( as I hadn’t been on a Ducati verified course apparently ) I even had a mate at Ducati Lincoln try appealing to them for me and they refused him too.

Personally I don’t care who anyone uses, it’s their choice and no skin off my nose but they should be aware that manufacturers with the very same claims re non dealer use can and have refused warranty from non dealer work before. I would prefer not to test BMW on it if I had a newer bike ( my bike is now out of warranty ) as the Ducati rad cost, even fitted by myself far outweighed the money I saved not having the dealer do the fork oil.

 

[MotoRevive]

The very same text re non dealer servicing is in the Ducati warranty terms. They still refused my radiator on the basis of a non dealer fork oil change. ( as I hadn’t been on a Ducati verified course apparently ) I even had a mate at Ducati Lincoln try appealing to them for me and they refused him too.

Personally I don’t care who anyone uses, it’s their choice and no skin off my nose but they should be aware that manufacturers with the very same claims re non dealer use can and have refused warranty from non dealer work before. I would prefer not to test BMW on it if I had a newer bike ( my bike is now out of warranty ) as the Ducati rad cost, even fitted by myself far outweighed the money I saved not having the dealer do the fork oil.

But you aren't a qualified mechanic or workshop are you ?? I really don't mean that in a belittling manor. You maybe the best Ducati mechanic in the world but are you qualified to service a Motorcycle ? It's not what you know. It's what you can prove. I see from your previous post that you worked servicing forks ??? What are your certificates ? Are they in date ? Are you accredited by an industry body like the IMI ?? That's what Ducati will be looking at if they're trying to be c**ts.

Was you bike fully serviced within it schedule with proper invoices ? Or did you service it yourself ?

I'm genuinely interested in the details because I want to know what games some manufacturers are playing ?

I also work for a major Suzuki and Kawasaki dealership. I know that they do not require this scrutineering at all. My responses come from real life industry experience.

 

[MotoRevive]

I read that in the paperwork with my bike. It doesn't change my stance. There's plenty of wriggle room in there.

If there's a major problem at the very least I'd expect to have to go to some lengths to provide the "proof of adequate servicing." What are the chances of being able to do that nearly three years time when I have a receipt from a local independent mechanic that says "engine oil and filter changed" rather than specifying the oil etc. If it's all been done at the dealer that worry just disappears.

Hopefully will never be an issue and would probably be completely irrelevant for most warranty claims (which seem to be based around electronics) but I would imagine BMW would be willing to spend a bit on their employed lawyers to get away from a £10k warranty claim for a seriously knackered engine.

Each to their own of course, and I'm not recommending anyone or everyone should do the same as me.

Having been the guy who worked for BMW and carried out thousands of warranty repairs, filling out the paperwork and being audited and checked by a BMW in person, I can say with absolute certainty that you are incorrect with your comment on 'wiggle room' as long as you've had a proper service done which has been properly invoiced.

However, you are totally correct that having an invoice from some nob who thinks a BMW service is an "oil and filter change" and invoices like that will certainly not be a profession workshop. And if anyone were to be given an invoice like that for your £20,000 bike then you'd be a moron for not questioning it.

Professional workshops do not invoice like that. But I do agree that taking your bike to a BMW dealer is a guaranteed way of having all of those boxes checked.

However, I totally respect your viewpoint. I just wanted to clarify the facts.

 

[spoonz]

But you aren't a qualified mechanic or workshop are you ?? I really don't mean that in a belittling manor. You maybe the best Ducati mechanic in the world but are you qualified to service a Motorcycle ? It's not what you know. It's what you can prove. I see from your previous post that you worked servicing forks ??? What are your certificates ? Are they in date ? Are you accredited by an industry body like the IMI ?? That's what Ducati will be looking at if they're trying to be c**ts.

Was you bike fully serviced within it schedule with proper invoices ? Or did you service it yourself ?

I'm genuinely interested in the details because I want to know what games some manufacturers are playing ?

I also work for a major Suzuki and Kawasaki dealership. I know that they do not require this scrutineering at all. My responses come from real life industry experience.

The bike was 100% dealer serviced during warranty with the exception of the fork oil on that 1 occasion.

At the time I wasn’t working with bikes anymore as a job but still had certificates for fork models still in circulation then but not Showa ( as fitted to the Ducati) The bit that stuck in my throat was that 3 weeks into my ownership the rear shock had a failure of the preload mechanism. Ducati uk agreed to let me remove and replace it with parts they sent because they accepted the very experience they refused to acknowledge later on. ( I lived a long way from a dealer with no van etc)

Had I been replacing cam belts etc and lunched the motor, that’s different but I’m sure you know yourself that 1 cartridge fork is much the same as the next for an oil change ( I ran a non oem air gap which is partly why I did the change). The lessen I took from it was that the text was misleading at face value. Certification for a similar or equivalent product doesn’t necessarily mean they will accept it. Or should I say in my case it did and then didn’t as it suited them.

The case involving Triumph mentioned before and by 44 teeth is an interesting one as it was an insurance repair carried out by a non Triumph dealer assigned by the insurer not the owner. When he later had a warranty issue he was refused on the basis of non dealer repairs. The competency of the dealer that did the work was never questioned just that it wasn’t official.

If you have a working relationship with BMW including warranty work that’s all well and good ( your bmw trained) but I wouldn’t be confident that I could rely on my warranty 100% if a competent but non BMW related workshop local to me had done all of my work pre something going wrong. Could they blame a failure on a missed update for example as most third parties won’t have that access.

 

[bosnjo]

In major engine failure, wouldn't they say: "Ah, you didn't use BMW oil so the failure is your fault!" ??
I don't know, just asking...

 

[BBB61]

In major engine failure, wouldn't they say: "Ah, you didn't use BMW oil so the failure is your fault!" ??
I don't know, just asking...

The handbook for my GS lists the required specification of the oil and it then says "BMW Motorrad recommends BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate oil". As long as the oil used meets the listed specification it doesn't have to be BMW's recommended oil.

 

[spoonz]

In major engine failure, wouldn't they say: "Ah, you didn't use BMW oil so the failure is your fault!" ??
I don't know, just asking...

Official oil may not be an issue in itself, it’s the quality and type of oil used instead that you might have to validate. It’s whether it’s the right oil, poured in by the wrong person that’s also a question and who is the right or wrong person ?

Is a spanners in a generic garage who potentially never saw inside a Showa fork or bmw engine before but services bikes ok or not ? Do you have to ask to see what courses he’s done or which trade bodies he’s in and do you need to check with the manufacturer they like those answers first ? One of my best buddies has an Aprilia specialist. He’s ex technical head at Aprilia uk, deals with the manufacturer regularly and without question knows more than any dealer I’ve met. But he can’t officially deal with warranty bikes . He told me Aprilia will argue warranty to the steps of the court over non dealer servicing if it suits them. They know in law you can if done right but most people fold long before it gets that far.

Bmw might be the exception, I’ve not tested them. If it were me and my bike were in warranty ( Bmw or whoever) or I hope for goodwill down the line, I’d be doing my homework before anyone touched it other than a dealer.

 

[MotoRevive]

The bike was 100% dealer serviced during warranty with the exception of the fork oil on that 1 occasion.

At the time I wasn’t working with bikes anymore as a job but still had certificates for fork models still in circulation then but not Showa ( as fitted to the Ducati) The bit that stuck in my throat was that 3 weeks into my ownership the rear shock had a failure of the preload mechanism. Ducati uk agreed to let me remove and replace it with parts they sent because they accepted the very experience they refused to acknowledge later on. ( I lived a long way from a dealer with no van etc)

Had I been replacing cam belts etc and lunched the motor, that’s different but I’m sure you know yourself that 1 cartridge fork is much the same as the next for an oil change ( I ran a non oem air gap which is partly why I did the change). The lessen I took from it was that the text was misleading at face value. Certification for a similar or equivalent product doesn’t necessarily mean they will accept it. Or should I say in my case it did and then didn’t as it suited them.

The case involving Triumph mentioned before and by 44 teeth is an interesting one as it was an insurance repair carried out by a non Triumph dealer assigned by the insurer not the owner. When he later had a warranty issue he was refused on the basis of non dealer repairs. The competency of the dealer that did the work was never questioned just that it wasn’t official.

If you have a working relationship with BMW including warranty work that’s all well and good ( your bmw trained) but I wouldn’t be confident that I could rely on my warranty 100% if a competent but non BMW related workshop local to me had done all of my work pre something going wrong. Could they blame a failure on a missed update for example as most third parties won’t have that access.

Was the fork oil part of a service that was done at your dealer but you asked the dealer not to do it so you could do it yourself ? I don't understand how Ducati would know you did your own fork service unless your Ducati dealer grassed you up. You just don't know what goes behind closed doors do you. I suppose Ducati can argue that you didn't follow their service schedule. But again, if your book was stamped and your have an invoice for the service, how the hell would they know ?? Or was their a stamp missing in your book for that fork service ??? If the stamp is missing then they have the excuse to void your warranty.

I think mistakes were made here by the person who was authorising your warranty work if your book was stamped up as it should be. I really think you should have fought it. It would have cost you £80 to file a small claim against Ducati and they wouldn't have even shown up. And I really can't see how they would have won.

The devil is in the detail. Your situation could be a long thread on it's own. You should contact Dalton White Solicitors. Especially as they had allowed your to do the work in another instance.

 

[MotoRevive]

In major engine failure, wouldn't they say: "Ah, you didn't use BMW oil so the failure is your fault!" ??
I don't know, just asking...

You really need to read your warranty book. (I posted the details above).

As others have correctly stated, you don't need to use their branded oil. BMW doesn't make oil. It re-brands Shell or Castrol or whatever deal they do that year. But it does have to meet the same standard. All oils have a rating. For example, an 1200LC uses 5W40 APi-SL MA2. If you look on the bottle of any oil it will tell you the standard. If your backstreet dealer throws in cheap stock oil to improve their margins or just writes "oil" on your invoice then BMW 'Could' ask to see what oil was used if for example you had a warranty complaint that your bike was burning oil. And would you blame BMW for not wanting to pay out for an engine fault caused by you using the incorrect oil ? I wouldn't. Although this is really digging into the hypothetical now.

And I do repeat this. The person pouring the oil HAS TO BE QUALIFIED to do so. As trivial and easy as changing oil may be, you can still do a lot of damage if you don't do it correctly. And until you've worked in retail or with the public, you can't comprehend just how stupid some people are.

 

[spoonz]

Was the fork oil part of a service that was done at your dealer but you asked the dealer not to do it so you could do it yourself ? I don't understand how Ducati would know you did your own fork service unless your Ducati dealer grassed you up. You just don't know what goes behind closed doors do you. I suppose Ducati can argue that you didn't follow their service schedule. But again, if your book was stamped and your have an invoice for the service, how the hell would they know ?? Or was their a stamp missing in your book for that fork service ??? If the stamp is missing then they have the excuse to void your warranty.

I think mistakes were made here by the person who was authorising your warranty work if your book was stamped up as it should be. I really think you should have fought it. It would have cost you £80 to file a small claim against Ducati and they wouldn't have even shown up. And I really can't see how they would have won.

The devil is in the detail. Your situation could be a long thread on it's own. You should contact Dalton White Solicitors. Especially as they had allowed your to do the work in another instance.

I’ll try and keep it short as poss. The bike was booked in for a service (7500) at a dealer on a Saturday. They normally wouldn’t do a big service on a sat but I offered to van the bike there so they had a cold engine ( for the valve check) and to deliver the bike minus panels to save time. When I came to collect the bike they informed me that they ran out of time and couldn’t do the forks so I had to leave it there. I said no problem I’ll do the fork oil myself, I’d borrowed the van and driver and he was reluctant to make the trip again, I’d done it in my job before etc etc. He stamped the book and wrote on the page “owner to service forks”.

Fast forward to radiator failing in France on my way to the Pyrenees. It was a known issue on the bikes, they had a modded design but no recall, just replace as needed. I limped the bike home and got in touch with the dealer. His reply was that Ducati refused me due to the non official servicing ( fork oil being done by myself was only non official thing ) and he wasn’t prepared to take it further. As I knew someone at Ducati Lincoln, I asked him whether the dealer was playing hard ball or was I screwed. He said I think you have a good chance, send me pictures of receipts and your service stamps etc and i’ll argue the case. Ducati refused again much to his surprise but offered the rad at £450 instead of £600 as a goodwill gesture. They were seemingly happy for me to fit it, despite not being happy I did the fork oil. So that’s exactly what I did.

To be honest I don’t think I even thought of small claims court at the time. The independent Ducati specialist I used outside of warranty did say that he had heard similar stories before so just put it down to experience.

 

[GSian]

Were Ducati saying that the radiator was damaged by someone doing the fork oil? If not how could doing your fork oil affect the radiator?

 

[Deleted account 210609001]

Were Ducati saying that the radiator was damaged by someone doing the fork oil? If not how could doing your fork oil affect the radiator?

Doesn't sound like it but when you're faced with someone being unreasonable and intransigent your only option is to go to court. Regardless of the likely outcome of the case or the actual outcome when it is heard, that's a whole load of hassle. Like Spoonz, I think I'd rather just close my eyes, hold my nose, and swallow it. (Yes, that means an injustice has been done in the world, but if it means I have my bike back quicker and avoid the stress and potential further costs, it's probably a better solution.)

 

[spoonz]

Were Ducati saying that the radiator was damaged by someone doing the fork oil? If not how could doing your fork oil affect the radiator?

That wasn’t the impression I got, just that there had been non dealer service work in the bikes history and that invalidated my claim. They never questioned my suitability to do the fork oil at least not to me personally, although I’m sure that would be their angle if pressed. With hindsight I suspect it’s just that I presented them with a get out option by doing the fork oil. Most people would likely suck it up as I did if the cost is moderate.

Based on what I’ve heard on some other brands this is still happening. As my mechanic mate said re Aprilia, if you go the non dealer route during warranty make sure you understand the potential issues and pick an independent that you are confident will stand shoulder to shoulder with you against the manufacturer should problems occur.

 

[knutk]

Doesn't sound like it but when you're faced with someone being unreasonable and intransigent your only option is to go to court. Regardless of the likely outcome of the case or the actual outcome when it is heard, that's a whole load of hassle. Like Spoonz, I think I'd rather just close my eyes, hold my nose, and swallow it. (Yes, that means an injustice has been done in the world, but if it means I have my bike back quicker and avoid the stress and potential further costs, it's probably a better solution.)

I do agree.
We should always be selective to what we allow to affect the ulcer

 

[GSian]

That wasn’t the impression I got, just that there had been non dealer service work in the bikes history and that invalidated my claim. They never questioned my suitability to do the fork oil at least not to me personally, although I’m sure that would be their angle if pressed. With hindsight I suspect it’s just that I presented them with a get out option by doing the fork oil. Most people would likely suck it up as I did if the cost is moderate.

Based on what I’ve heard on some other brands this is still happening. As my mechanic mate said re Aprilia, if you go the non dealer route during warranty make sure you understand the potential issues and pick an independent that you are confident will stand shoulder to shoulder with you against the manufacturer should problems occur.

If you fought it they wouldn't have grounds to stand on. If it's not connected to the fault then there are no grounds to refuse the claim. A lot of these companies get away with it, the franchised dealers are not squeaky clean either, they try it on too, I've had it where they say "no the brand has rejected it" when they haven't even told the brand, I've proved them wrong in the past by taking it up directly with the brand, who've had no prior knowledge of it.

 

[GSian]

Doesn't sound like it but when you're faced with someone being unreasonable and intransigent your only option is to go to court. Regardless of the likely outcome of the case or the actual outcome when it is heard, that's a whole load of hassle. Like Spoonz, I think I'd rather just close my eyes, hold my nose, and swallow it. (Yes, that means an injustice has been done in the world, but if it means I have my bike back quicker and avoid the stress and potential further costs, it's probably a better solution.)

Not me sir, I'm from Yorkshire . It's fraud in my eye's.

 

[mrtee43]

I would have filed a case in the small claims court online as it does not cost very much. Did this with TUI a few years ago when they charged our party of 4 £25 each to carry skis on a package skiing holiday booked over the phone. Got to the airport and charged £100 or the skis were not going. The thing was, nobody had mentioned this charge when booking and we were not given any written terms and conditions. The day they were due to appear in court, I received a cheque for £100 and my costs.

I think too many people say "Life is too short, just move on". If you have a good case like the one outlined above, I reckon these big companies would back down if they had to appear in a small claims court where it is a very informal setting and common sense prevails.

 

[spoonz]

If you fought it they wouldn't have grounds to stand on. If it's not connected to the fault then there are no grounds to refuse the claim. A lot of these companies get away with it, the franchised dealers are not squeaky clean either, they try it on too, I've had it where they say "no the brand has rejected it" when they haven't even told the brand, I've proved them wrong in the past by taking it up directly with the brand, who've had no prior knowledge of it.

I agree with you 100%.

If you have exhausted the easier routes you have to weigh up the costs of time off work ( small claims court I doubt would award that back) and any other expenses against what your claiming for. Chances are it would have been a moral victory more than a financial one had I resorted to that. For a bigger issue, trust me I would have jumped up and down a lot more.

 

[MotoRevive]

Absolutely. Ducati sound like absolute arseholes. Or the dealer was.

Remember that a warranty is an insurance policy taken out by the manufacturer. Some are internal and some aren't. It depends how big the company is. BMW, Kawasaki etc are industrial giants. The italian brands change owners daily. I can only imagine the chaos behind closed doors. And insurance companies are professional thieves in every way. They are constantly acting unlawful but people just let them get away with it for an easy life.

I remember when I had a bike stolen from work. On CCTV. Police even watched the footage. The insurance company came around to my house to inspect the locks on my garage see if they could find a way to invalidate my policy on a totally unrelated technicality. Dirty horrible bastards. It sounds like Ducati are playing the same game. They are literally breaking the law. They probably know it too. But It's cheaper for them to abuse the law and take a court fine every now and again than it is for them to keep replacing parts of their unreliable bikes. It might not be too late to make a claim. I would at least write a letter to Ducati UK's legal department explaining the situation and that you are taking legal advice. You might find you get an apology and a check. You could also say that you're making an episode for a massive Youtube channel about it.

I've had experiences where I've had to fight for a customer for warranties. You have to remember that the people who deal with these cases are just people in offices and call centres. They often haven't got a clue what they're doing or even know their job. Or they just make genuine mistakes.

 

[mrtee43]

I agree with you 100%.

If you have exhausted the easier routes you have to weigh up the costs of time off work ( small claims court I doubt would award that back) and any other expenses against what your claiming for. Chances are it would have been a moral victory more than a financial one had I resorted to that. For a bigger issue, trust me I would have jumped up and down a lot more.

Chances are that you would not have to take time off work. I've heard it quite a few times these big companies don't even defend it or turn up and lose by default. Ever seen the program where the bailiffs turn up at multi million pound companies to enforce a court decision and have the power to take anything of value to settle the payment? Most of the time they don't even know they have lost a case and they try and bluster and bully, but always pay up when the bailiffs threaten to take goods.