Help corrosion again !

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mneville

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I have many corroded components on my 2008 1200GSA i took the bike to Vines for its 18k service and for a BMW inspector to carry out an inspection and confirm the components they will replace. To my horror the report came back stating nothing will be replaced as it has been used 'comprehensively' and was heavily stone chipped. The items that are rusted/corroded are, front wheel,gearbox housing, final drive near mudguard fixings, front engine case, other areas at each side of the engine and the frame has rusted in areas that cant be caused by stone chipping. Also my seat has a small hole in due to wear, this is the second seat that has worn in the same place. I feel I have cleaned the bike regularly to a reasonable standard.
I called customer care yesterday they informed me that an inspector's report is final. I have read a thread that stated they had similar defects and BMW would not budge. I love the GS but now wonder if I should bite the bullet and change to a K1300S where i cannot see the engine corroding !.

Any suggestions on how I can pursue BMW to replace these items?
 
that seems an awfull lot of corrosion,any pics?

has it been yours from new,did you try to speak to darren at vines and go through each prob with you,
 
Hi yes did speak to Darren he recommended speaking to customer services. I must say that Vines are the best dealer I have ever dealt with I cannot fault them. Will try and put some pic's on but as I am new to forums Im having difficulty transfering them from my computer to the forum.

Cheers
 
I have many corroded components on my 2008 1200GSA i took the bike to Vines for its 18k service and for a BMW inspector to carry out an inspection and confirm the components they will replace. To my horror the report came back stating nothing will be replaced as it has been used 'comprehensively' and was heavily stone chipped. The items that are rusted/corroded are, front wheel,gearbox housing, final drive near mudguard fixings, front engine case, other areas at each side of the engine and the frame has rusted in areas that cant be caused by stone chipping. Also my seat has a small hole in due to wear, this is the second seat that has worn in the same place. I feel I have cleaned the bike regularly to a reasonable standard.
I called customer care yesterday they informed me that an inspector's report is final. I have read a thread that stated they had similar defects and BMW would not budge. I love the GS but now wonder if I should bite the bullet and change to a K1300S where i cannot see the engine corroding !.

Any suggestions on how I can pursue BMW to replace these items?

BMW treat you like that and you want to buy a new BMW !!
 
Will try and put some pic's on but as I am new to forums Im having difficulty transfering them from my computer to the forum.

2 options AFAIK,

1) become a subscriber, then you can download piccies onto the site.
2) link the piccies from a photobucket etc etc site.
 
With respect to the OP,
I have a 57 plate 12GSA with 17000 miles which to be fair is foing to have a couple of corroded parts replaced under warranty in a couple of weeks,
A fuell filler
A front engine casing
Replacement Chrome downpiped which have rusted,

These items are the exception to the norm for my bike, I ride it all year round, Salt and all.
The service manager at Coopers Tunbridge Wells took one look at my very nicely kept bike and agreed that these 3 items had corroded before thier time.
He did however state that had the whole bike shown signs of corrosion then they wouldn't cover it under warranty as it could be deemed as neglect.

You have said that your bike has corrosion in many areas and many different materials not just one or two isolated components,

The one common factor of your bike is it's owner, If you ride it through the winter and don't wash the salt off then you've got what you deserved,

These are motorbikes, Made from alloy and steel, Just because it's a BMW doesn't mean that it's all of a sudden made from hybrid non corrosive amazing materials which (Because it's a £12k BMW) won't corrode if not looked after,

It sounds to me (And I'm braced to be pulled apart here) like the bike's had a hard life and now it's showing the signs of that.

Come on now ............. let's show some perspective here.
 
54 GS

has covered 25000 miles and has plenty of corrosion, more than a 35000 miles yamaha I owned, I also ride with a zx12r, a 22000 miles rizla suzuki that has completed the nordcap and a 18000 mile bandit, now I clean my bike much more often than the other owners and mine has the most corrosion, despite living in a garage and weekly cleaning, as well as liberal applications of anti corrosion sprays, the finish is weak, thin and poor and not really what you expect when paying so much for a bike.

As the GS became more popular due to long way they could not keep up with demand and as such corners were cut , we are now paying for that, I will keep mine as I love the way it rides ( as does my wife) and I will paint over the rusted areas with black fire paint ( properly prep of course) as I have done with the front cover and footpeg hangers, not really what I expected to be doing after spending so much on a bike, however my corrosion claim was knocked back and there is now not much else I can do, I will just ride the thing until it falls apart or they bring out something which I like more.:blagblah:blagblah:blagblah:blagblah
 
BMW treat you like that and you want to buy a new BMW !!
....I had a chuckle at that as well. Why do you think the K will be any different, other than covered in plastic!!!???

Either way, I'd pursue your case through customer services. I normally quote a few paragraphs from the sales literature about the GS. Make reference to you following the recommendations on cleaning in the owners manual - then make them respond. Don't do it by email, do it on the phone speaking to a real person.

If you don't get any joy from that lot, you'll probably need a quote from Vines to carry out the work, then go and see the citizens advice - I'd imagine you'd then threaten the dealer with the small claims court.

Good luck!
 
has covered 25000 miles and has plenty of corrosion, more than a 35000 miles yamaha I owned, I also ride with a zx12r, a 22000 miles rizla suzuki that has completed the nordcap and a 18000 mile bandit, now I clean my bike much more often than the other owners and mine has the most corrosion, despite living in a garage and weekly cleaning, as well as liberal applications of anti corrosion sprays, the finish is weak, thin and poor and not really what you expect when paying so much for a bike.

As the GS became more popular due to long way they could not keep up with demand and as such corners were cut , we are now paying for that, I will keep mine as I love the way it rides ( as does my wife) and I will paint over the rusted areas with black fire paint ( properly prep of course) as I have done with the front cover and footpeg hangers, not really what I expected to be doing after spending so much on a bike, however my corrosion claim was knocked back and there is now not much else I can do, I will just ride the thing until it falls apart or they bring out something which I like more.:blagblah:blagblah:blagblah:blagblah

I agree with al the above blogs on quality apart from the underlined bit, which I simply don't think its true.

As I am actually a major in industrial design with a MechEng degree, let me explain: (some of you may want to skip it here)

At the most basic level (the subject is actually very complicated), complete machines and individual components are all engineered to specific lifing vs cost charts and quality of materials used vs cost- there are actually a few hundred different types, the aforementioned 2 just for the example. Every company, parts supplier etc cont use their own charts, after continuously monitoring , tweaking comparing with their peer group for similar items.

Most of these charts looks like a parabola (they aren't though).Using the horizontal axis as cost, if you plot the two lines on the same graph, they look similar (they start as upward sloping but straightish and go into parabolic shape 2/3 down effectively flattening out - i.e you need an ever increasing amount of money to raise quality of materials or lifing (effectively the average expected life of the machine that a significant proportion of customers will keep it - for BMW cars its currently less than 50 months and falling).

When all of these "life charts" are done - a typical R&D path for a typical average car like a Ford Mondeo would contain about 50,000 life related studies vs cost for specific components, specific assemblies of components and eventually whole units- then it is decided on what cost to design for.

Its also worth noting that quality of components in engineering is defined as serviceable time at a given capacity level before failure, and type if failure. So perceived quality - GS not rusting fast - is different to actual quality (it may look tired but keeps going longer)
I.e a bearing that looks good with no rust working 1500 hrs at 90% capacity before disintegrating with no warning is a lower quality item than one that goes a bit rusty early, but giver 5000 hrs with regular wear rates before failing slowly.

In modern times, cost can be much better defined and budgeted for, and so can the lifing of components. I.e a bearing manufacturer can confidently say that 99.2% of type X bearing will last at least Y hours. That accuracy leads to tighter allowances in everything. When these new design criteria combine with the disposability and relative cheapness (all machines from a piaggio to a Bentley, to a helicopter are much cheaper today that they were 40 years ago by mile (inflation adjusted)), of everything, it leads to the manufacturers designing for less.

Its simple: why make a new 3 series (the typical upmarket saloon car benchmark) last 20 years, when there will be less than 0.3% of owners who ll keep it until then. Instead, you make it last to 100% of its intended quality for 3-5 years and then let it fall apart a lot faster than the old days, where the wear curves were smoother. The advance of electronics that have a digital (working/broken) failure pattern and a very fast path into obsoleteness obviously aid the above cause for cheaper, shorter life cycles.

The above patterns of industrial design can be seen obviously in our beloved bikes of all sorts, and other things: The tarmac on roads (its 3 times cheaper to resurface today than in 1970), electronics (obviously), domestic kit from roofing materials (the average kitched in the uk is less than 10 years old and falling - why build a stove to last 100 years?) all the way to carpets, clothing (the average shirt is 3.5 times cheaper today than 40 years ago and has cost 20 times less to make - all inflation adj) etc...

Why would BMW GS be any different?
 
bottom line: manufacturers know very well what they are making/selling. BMW in particular spends abt 10,000 man hours PER DAY on r&d (they have 1200+ staff) which includes the topic of lifing.

So, yes, your super duper GSA was designed to look worn, get rusty etc with age. It was designed to eventually fail, bit by bit. It will do that whether it looks rusty or well kept. Machines will continue to become cheaper and more disposable. If you care too much about asset values, try switching to other assets.

Bikes,cars etc devalue. Slightly less if you spend thousands of hours cleaning, slightly more if you don't do much and will certainly devalue a whole load more when you spend fresh capital for add ons. exhausts etc as you are facing the same devalued price from a higher base.

Selling a tatty one at £5k 3 years after I ve bought it used for 8k when I ve done nothing to it = 37% hit.

If after buying the same thing for 8k, I had spent 1k on cleaning, 1k on exhausts and other stuff, I 'd probably sell for 5.5k, but from a 10k base it would be 45% drop...
 
I agree with al the above blogs on quality apart from the underlined bit, which I simply don't think its true.

As I am actually a major in industrial design with a MechEng degree, let me explain: (some of you may want to skip it here)

At the most basic level (the subject is actually very complicated), complete machines and individual components are all engineered to specific lifing vs cost charts and quality of materials used vs cost- there are actually a few hundred different types, the aforementioned 2 just for the example. Every company, parts supplier etc cont use their own charts, after continuously monitoring , tweaking comparing with their peer group for similar items.

Most of these charts looks like a parabola (they aren't though).Using the horizontal axis as cost, if you plot the two lines on the same graph, they look similar (they start as upward sloping but straightish and go into parabolic shape 2/3 down effectively flattening out - i.e you need an ever increasing amount of money to raise quality of materials or lifing (effectively the average expected life of the machine that a significant proportion of customers will keep it - for BMW cars its currently less than 50 months and falling).

When all of these "life charts" are done - a typical R&D path for a typical average car like a Ford Mondeo would contain about 50,000 life related studies vs cost for specific components, specific assemblies of components and eventually whole units- then it is decided on what cost to design for.

Its also worth noting that quality of components in engineering is defined as serviceable time at a given capacity level before failure, and type if failure. So perceived quality - GS not rusting fast - is different to actual quality (it may look tired but keeps going longer)
I.e a bearing that looks good with no rust working 1500 hrs at 90% capacity before disintegrating with no warning is a lower quality item than one that goes a bit rusty early, but giver 5000 hrs with regular wear rates before failing slowly.

In modern times, cost can be much better defined and budgeted for, and so can the lifing of components. I.e a bearing manufacturer can confidently say that 99.2% of type X bearing will last at least Y hours. That accuracy leads to tighter allowances in everything. When these new design criteria combine with the disposability and relative cheapness (all machines from a piaggio to a Bentley, to a helicopter are much cheaper today that they were 40 years ago by mile (inflation adjusted)), of everything, it leads to the manufacturers designing for less.

Its simple: why make a new 3 series (the typical upmarket saloon car benchmark) last 20 years, when there will be less than 0.3% of owners who ll keep it until then. Instead, you make it last to 100% of its intended quality for 3-5 years and then let it fall apart a lot faster than the old days, where the wear curves were smoother. The advance of electronics that have a digital (working/broken) failure pattern and a very fast path into obsoleteness obviously aid the above cause for cheaper, shorter life cycles.

The above patterns of industrial design can be seen obviously in our beloved bikes of all sorts, and other things: The tarmac on roads (its 3 times cheaper to resurface today than in 1970), electronics (obviously), domestic kit from roofing materials (the average kitched in the uk is less than 10 years old and falling - why build a stove to last 100 years?) all the way to carpets, clothing (the average shirt is 3.5 times cheaper today than 40 years ago and has cost 20 times less to make - all inflation adj) etc...

Why would BMW GS be any different?

Kin El

Fascinating :thumb
 
bottom line: manufacturers know very well what they are making/selling. BMW in particular spends abt 10,000 man hours PER DAY on r&d (they have 1200+ staff) which includes the topic of lifing.

So, yes, your super duper GSA was designed to look worn, get rusty etc with age. It was designed to eventually fail, bit by bit. It will do that whether it looks rusty or well kept. Machines will continue to become cheaper and more disposable. If you care too much about asset values, try switching to other assets.

Bikes,cars etc devalue. Slightly less if you spend thousands of hours cleaning, slightly more if you don't do much and will certainly devalue a whole load more when you spend fresh capital for add ons. exhausts etc as you are facing the same devalued price from a higher base.

Selling a tatty one at £5k 3 years after I ve bought it used for 8k when I ve done nothing to it = 37% hit.

If after buying the same thing for 8k, I had spent 1k on cleaning, 1k on exhausts and other stuff, I 'd probably sell for 5.5k, but from a 10k base it would be 45% drop...

Factor in the cost of labour . Components are manufactured in China for BM ( not just the 800 engine , but a raft of car and bike parts ) , they can afford the high cost of claims because the original components cost pennies.
 
The one common factor of your bike is it's owner, If you ride it through the winter and don't wash the salt off then you've got what you deserved.

And this, folks, is the type of owner who is responsible for BMW having cut quality further and further back, to the point where we now have come to expect that bikes will be furred, corroded, and generally sub-par.

Tunneruk, there are plenty of bikes that cope far, far better than some BMWs when ridden year round, and some of us expect that a "premium" product will have premium quality finishes, so that we don't need to wash them every time they are ridden in the winter.

If BMW truly intend their bikes to be summer only use, or if they require such an unreasonable amount of care from the owners, then they should probably state upfront that these are fashion toys, not t be used in bad conditions, or should make very clear that they should not be bought by people who want, for example, to ride them to work (where there may not be washing facilities available.

Fortunately, most dealers, and BMW UK tend to take a more helpful, and less spiteful attitude than yours, and will replace corroded parts, albeit often after a bit of to-and-fro with the customer.
 
In reply to Tunner's remarks, how come I can ride a £5500 Aprilia Caponord care for or not as you assume for 2 years covering 15k miles a year with very little corrosion. I have owned 30+ motorbikes and have never seen corrosion like it. Yes I may be mad possibly buying another BMW but no other bikes interest me at the moment, covered in plastic is out of sight out of mind !.
 
Wait till next year and have a look at the new V4 Honda are bringing out. I bet BMW are not looking forward to it as I suspect a lot of K12 and K13 owners will be buying the Honda. Quality and reliability. Hopefully.:hide
 
Wait till next year and have a look at the new V4 Honda are bringing out. I bet BMW are not looking forward to it as I suspect a lot of K12 and K13 owners will be buying the Honda. Quality and reliability. Hopefully.:hide


it even looks lika a K1300s !!
 
mneville,
I don't have th answer as yet but I have a similar problem. 2008 GSA showing corrosion on the wheels, final drive and frame around the rear pegs after about 5 months winter use. BMW replaced the wheels and fina ldrive but refused to do anything about the frame as it was deemed not a manufacturing defect.

i haven't given up yet but I am not sure of the next steps. I am trying to contact some car/bike paint repair specialists for an opinion on the source of the rust, as it looks to me like there is no damage to the external paint so it must have come from underneath. Could also try the Citizens Advice, and i need to check my house or bike insurance for legal cover to see if they can help. Possibly also trading standards on the grounds that the bike has been used as intended and has suffered undue wear and tear so was not of merchantable quality in the beginning?

If enough of us complain to BMW (and maybe the bike magazines, although apparently they won't publish anything negative about manufacturers because it hits their advertising revenue!) then maybe BMW will do something about the problem. If people continue to roll over and take it, BMW will continue to reduce quality whilst inflating prices and laugh all the way to the bank.
 
Hi Fat Bob,
Today I have purchased a K1300S, BMW would not replace anything as my previous post/thread, However Vines did not want to loose my business, they gave me a superb discount and a high PX price.
If you have AA membership they have a good legal team taht offer good advice. I am hoping that as the K's engine is cover up at the front I will suffer less corrosion, good luck with pursuing BMW.
 


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