I tried my brakes with ignition off...never again

[Flying banana]

The other day, I was bimbling along, and decided to try an experiment to see what residual braking was like. I ripped out all the servo gubbins, threw it in the bin in the garage........no I didn't ....I turned the ignition off to stop the servos working, and did a brake test. Now i am not sure how accurately this replicated no servos if they failed, but even so it was alarming, to say the least.
I squeezed the front brake lever as hard as I could, and very little happened in the slowing down department. Now I accept there is going to be a diference in power and feel between full servo assistance, and none at all, but this was extreme. The brakes felt 'wooden' in the extreme, and if I had needed to slow down quickly, (contradiction in terms?) there is no way I could have done.
Having now experienced no servo assistance, i would want to have to deal with it if it fails proper.
As i said, its not an accurate replication, but is close enuff for me

You should try it, its an 'interesting' experience!

 

[Tarka]

And that`s the very reason why I`d never have a bike with that system.

I really cannot see how it passes all the 'Approval' tests......

 

[Gas'd Off]

You should try it, its an 'interesting' experience!

I can't I've got a prehistoric 1150 without servos

 

[Kropotkin]

And that`s the very reason why I`d never have a bike with that system.

I really cannot see how it passes all the 'Approval' tests......

Because you'd be surprised just how little braking is required by law ...

 

[Commuter]

Different System?

I think it is a different system from what I remember. I've driven 2 non servo bikes and the brake were quite positive.

Turning off or removing servos are different type of brake I think, anyone able to explain more clearly?

Personally the ABS servo brakes have been good to me and saved me in London a few times with blind cab drivers etc....and once the ABS helped in a very difficult stopping move I made, without them, my speed and disregard for the conditions could of finished up alot worse than some light off roading at the side of a B road.

 

[Mouse]

I've done the same test on my servo equipped 1200 and the stopping distances, while longer than with servos (obviously), are well inside the figures quoted on the back of the "Highway Code".

 

[Flying banana]

I've done the same test on my servo equipped 1200 and the stopping distances, while longer than with servos (obviously), are well inside the figures quoted on the back of the "Highway Code".

Based on my impressions of the 'test', the stopping distance may well be inside the Highway Code figures, I still would not want to have to perform even a routine stop without the servos, as the braking is so bad. It doesn't even come close to the results with servos.
Mind you, with them working, the brakes are cracking as far as I am concerned. lets hope it never happens

 

[nleader]

I've done the same test on my servo equipped 1200 and the stopping distances, while longer than with servos (obviously), are well inside the figures quoted on the back of the "Highway Code".

Exactly so. I've tried it too. Believe it or not, the residual braking power is good enough to pass an MOT test. It wasn't pleasant and I was a little bit worried, but I stopped before the junction.

Anyway, I'll shut up now and let the members of "Luddites 'R' Us" tell us all why servo technology is a bad idea and we're all doomed. (And I don't think anyone who has posted above me is in that group - except maybe Tarka).

No I won't... Here's a question. Is there someone on the list who had their servos fail whilst in mid ride and actually crashed as result of the failure. Or did the residual braking provide enough stopping power to get out of trouble?

"Wet my pants but didn't crash" doesn't count - see above. Neither does "it really happened to a friend of a friend".

Go on... are you out there?

My view is that if you need the power of the servos to reduce your braking distances in ordinary riding then you're probably going too fast, too close. It was meant for emergencies and to allow riders to use far less pressure on the levers to stop - not as a performance aid.

Norman

 

[Paul Wakefield]

I've done the same test on my servo equipped 1200 and the stopping distances, while longer than with servos (obviously), are well inside the figures quoted on the back of the "Highway Code".

I seem to recall, buried in one of nemezis's interminable threads I expect , that the residual braking on the 1200s has been improved over the earlier versions. I thought the residual braking on my 1200GS was OK - wooden, a bit scary first time but OK. If the 1150 versions were worse, I can imagine why Flying Banana didn't fancy it.

Paul

 

[ianboydsnr]

Quote
My view is that if you need the power of the servos to reduce your braking distances in ordinary riding then you're probably going too fast, too close. It was meant for emergencies and to allow riders to use far less pressure on the levers to stop - not as a performance aid.

Norman[/QUOTE]


Surely, the servo, is exactly a performance aid, it adds power to the braking system, making it easier to operate, improving the performance, it was designed to be used to reduce the braking distances in ordinary riding in the same way as a car with servo brakes does, it was not meant for emergencies only, otherwise, you would over compensate in an emergency, non servo brake system seem to work fine, but with more effort, maybe its what your used to, thats the problem, i frequently use non power steering vehicles and wonder how I managed before power steering

 

[Spagforth]

Brakes and things

I have had BM's with and without ABS and do like the ABS system on its own, current 1200 doesn't. I always spend a lot of time pracising braking in all conditions. Most don't until that 'ohmygod' moment ! I find the brakes really positive and stoppies easily achieved without any hint of locking up. Braking distances are really impressive and even in the wet you will be surprised. Many bike crashes are caused by riders underbraking rather than over braking. I definately dont like the servo/ABS system. My other half had this system fitted to her 1150R and hated it, I agree with her ( unusual), its gone and she has replaced it with a with a Ducati Monster, the little monkey! Wants a 'Termig' exhaust system for Valentines Day. Tsk.

Spaggy

 

[Flying banana]

"My view is that if you need the power of the servos to reduce your braking distances in ordinary riding then you're probably going too fast, too close. It was meant for emergencies and to allow riders to use far less pressure on the levers to stop - not as a performance aid.

Norman"

If I have understood your point rightly, then based on my experience, if I rode around allowing stopping distances based on what I now know of the residual braking effect, I literally would not be going over 30mph, anywhere. That is not an exaggeration. In my opinion, and its seems I am not alone, without servo, the braking system that is fitted to servo'd bikes is pretty dire, if you see what I mean! No way is the power that the servo adds meant to used as an emergency back up. Yes, the ABS is, but thats a different concept, and separate to the servo system.

 

[Le singe]

If you disconnect the servo in your car, the braking is pretty useless, the car system was developed, (I think), because pedal pressures became too great as better braking became needed as car performance increased.
With the BMW servo system, it's really a question of why it's needed in the first place, look at the braking performance of other bikes without the system.
Yes, I'm a Luddite, I don't like unnecessary complication because, for various reasons, poor design, poor maintenance, it can lead to more problems than it it prevents.

 

[Pressurized]

If you disconnect the servo in your car, the braking is pretty useless, the car system was developed, (I think), because pedal pressures became too great as better braking became needed as car performance increased.
With the BMW servo system, it's really a question of why it's needed in the first place, look at the braking performance of other bikes without the system.
Yes, I'm a Luddite, I don't like unnecessary complication because, for various reasons, poor design, poor maintenance, it can lead to more problems than it it prevents.

I'm not quite sure whether you fall into the 'for' or 'against' camp here.

You do say to look at other bikes without servos and I remember when Bike magazine had a long-term test R1200 GS, it out braked everything else they had apart from a ZX10-R. The other bikes included, as I remember, a Fireblade, a GSX-R 750 and other less 'committed' - but mostly lighter - bikes. Look at the GS's weight, stance on the road and front tyre size - isn't that result remarkable?

I've had one unrehearsed experience with the potential of the GS's brakes and I really doubt that any other bike (and, given the actual detailed circumstances, any car) would have got me out of trouble. At that time I was using all of the braking potential, including the ABS (though less than I would have imagined in advance) and the composure of the telelever system. The bike, as a whole, was stunning.

Fair enough, you may say, a rider shouldn't have to rely on the full potential of the bike on the road; he/she should ride within lower limits appropriate to the prevailing conditions. However, the limits of bikes' abilities are progressing. While today, speeds of 80mph over a given a road may be quite safely achievable, 20 years ago speeds above 60mph on the same road with a rider of the same ability may have been extremely reckless on the equipment then available.

The point is made above about not using the servos as a 'performance aid'. I disagree; while you should take that attitude with ABS, the servo system lets you ride somewhat faster while still maintaining the safety margin of 'earlier' brakes used at lower speeds. Do I want that advantage? Yes, I do. Just like I take similar advantage from better tyres, better suspension, better frames, etc, etc. It's called progress.

We may be pioneering servo'd brakes but, in ten years time, isn't it likely we'll see them on more and more bikes? And, in ten years time, will everyone be moaning about the latest advance, whatever that may be, that is getting put on our bikes?

As to the here and now. Opinions clearly differ on the subject. That's fine, I respect peoples' views and everyone can make a choice, however informed, on what they want.

 

[Paul Young]

Extra complication & extra cost.....

Does everyone know how much it costs for a brake service on a servo model?

I believe that for the brakes alone, it's around £130 to replace the fluid, bleed & pressure test the system. Why is it electrical & not a mechanical/vacuum system like on cars? It appears to be that, because it's electrical, it seems prone to problems.

Me no likeee......

 

[Le singe]

My 'logic' is also based on the fact that, on my 1100, I can lock the front wheel in the wet, and squeel the front tyre in the dry. That suggests that the existing brakes are capable of pushing the tyres, (Bridgestone 020s), to their limits, any more braking power is therefore unnecessary.
O.K., you could fit a servo'ed system and then fit ABS and have theoretically the optimum, but I personally don't like all the extra systems, increased servicing time and costs, when the standard set-up seems to work perfectly.
Perhaps, unlike Pressurized, I don't worry enough about those few extra seconds lost by not maximising my braking when riding on the road....that's best kept for the track

 

[Pressurized]

My 'logic' is also based on the fact that, on my 1100, I can lock the front wheel in the wet, and squeel the front tyre in the dry. That suggests that the existing brakes are capable of pushing the tyres, (Bridgestone 020s), to their limits, any more braking power is therefore unnecessary.
O.K., you could fit a servo'ed system and then fit ABS and have theoretically the optimum, but I personally don't like all the extra systems, increased servicing time and costs, when the standard set-up seems to work perfectly.
Perhaps, unlike Pressurized, I don't worry enough about those few extra seconds lost by not maximising my braking when riding on the road....that's best kept for the track

I too have an 1100 and don't intend to sell it. I love it; too many good, safe, memorable miles (102k) to sell it on.

It's difficult to argue with your comments that, if you can lock the wheels in the dry then you're at the ultimate but the Bike test (and you decide how much respect you want to put on it) showed that a new GS can out brake far sportier tackle. Would the 1100 have done as well? Probably not but it would have done well.

To be honest, I don't brake very hard on the road; my 1100 front discs are the originals and the rear was replaced at about 80k miles. Please don't get the impression that I'm pushing my bike (either one) to the limits on the approach to every bend. What I'm trying to say is that one day you might, through no fault or neglect of your own, need the extra yards (or metres) that a newer braking system may give you. And then you'll be glad. In the meantime, you'll read about servicing costs (will someone figure out how to do it without the diagnostic machine?) and reliability and then you'll be sad.

 

[Le singe]

The servicing issue is something else that makes me avoid over-complication.
When I read on here of dealerships charging £70 an hour workshop time, I cringe.
I think the 1100 is brilliant, (to the same degree that 1150 and 1200 owners think their bikes are brilliant!), but the ability to service and repair it myself is part of the package, hence the reason I now have carburettors.
The bike is no more complicated to service now than an airhead, and the savings on servicing pay for a lot of fuel!

 

[nemezis]

..., if I rode around allowing stopping distances based on what I now know of the residual braking effect, I literally would not be going over 30mph, anywhere. That is not an exaggeration. In my opinion, and its seems I am not alone, without servo, the braking system that is fitted to servo'd bikes is pretty dire, if you see what I mean!

Obviously you do own a BMW R1150GS. Every word you wrote is true!

nemezis