instrument cluster weirdness on a 2005. any ideas?

[abraxas]

Hi all. A bit of help, please?

Recently acquired a 2005 bike and slowly going through servicing and a few fixes. One thing that is puzzling me is the odd behaviour of the instrument cluster.

When ignition is switched on, the bike seems to go through a usual self-check but instead of the usual startup routine (whatever it is on a 1200GS), it seems to tick and "twitch" for a few seconds and the LCD screen goes quite dark. Now, the speedo and rev counter are working fine and so does the gear indicator and the rest of the info on the screen. So it seems like the polariser is way off? Look at me, like I know what I am talking about

Tried a different ECU and a different ZFE (I have an 800 GS and these are close enough for a test) and no difference to cluster behaviour. Measured continuity on all cables going to KOMBI - all good. Measured the CAN bus resistance and it seems fine (60-ish, with everything connected. Voltage on all cables seem expected (although I am a bit vague on CAN, 2.4V 2.6V seem about ok for average (don't have an oscilloscope to check it. The bike did have a break in the ignition cable around headstock, but that has been fixed and I cannot spot any other breaks in cabling.

Finally, ISTA cannot connect to KOMBI (connects to other nodes ok).

Hopefully this vid from Google Drive will work. VIDEO

Any ideas? Has anyone had a similar thing? How did you fix?
As a last-resort - Does anyone have a spare set of clocks I could beg/try/buy/borrow? [I'd rather fix the originals as the mileage will be correct etc.]

Thanks.

 

[Popell]

Never seen that behaviour before on either my '05 or '09, sorry can't help

 

[abraxas]

Never seen that behaviour before on either my '05 or '09, sorry can't help

Aye, it is a puzzling one... thanks for taking the time to read and try to help anyway! Appreciated.

 

[TLSgazza]

I didn't have the problem you have but,
A few years back I had the average fuel consumption and other settings reset to zero every time I turned off the ignition on many occasions.
I had had the clocks off a few weeks prior to fit HID bulbs.
Anyway I took the connections apart again and checked them, after refitting it never did it again.
I suspect something wasn't connected properly in one of the block connectors.

 

[Santa-2512]

You need a session on a gs911,

It has the ability to interrogate and test the kombi

 

[steve hughes]

Silly answer, but is the battery fully charged. As you know the 650/ 800’s do double sweeps when battery voltage is low

 

[abraxas]

Thank you all for trying to help.

- it is definitely not a connection issue. I have un-plugged, cleaned and re-plugged everything. Even did a good clean of the main ground connection. I get good connectivity testing on all cables. Also no short to ground / positive or between CAN. There is only 6 wires so easy to test. CAN-Hi, CAN-low (twisted pair), Ground, permanent 12V, ignition 12V, and a purple wire that is "GS-Only", also carrying 12V on ignition. No idea what that is for.

- GS911 - Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think this will help, Santa. I can get the connection via ODB to BMSK and to ABS module. it is just the KOMBI (instruments) that are not responding. This is using ISTA (Rheingold). I think that the GS911 also uses the same interpreter as the dealer software (i.e. OBDII, which, with my limited understanding communicates with BMSK-P first. Then searches the CANbus using BMSK. Could be wrong... but seems expensive to buy GS911 just for that. ISTA is temperamental but really good.

- Most likely not the battery. It is on tender all the time, and measures more than 12.6V. It is, however a Lithium-Ion one and shows 2 of 3 lines on the in-built tester.... may try to swap with my F800 lead-acid Yuasa to try, but really don't think this is it. The bike starts fine and the actual energy drain for the clocks is miniscule. It would more likely choke on the starter-motor drain.

My theories, due to the cabling issue round the headstock went from bad ground, chafed wires, a short between CAN, short from CAN to 12V, etc etc. The weird thing is that the LCD "shade overload" gets better and worse... just not because of anything I am doing

One other oddity/question: one *should* be able to start a GS in gear with clutch engaged, right? Mine won't engage starter when in gear regardless. And I did get a new clutch switch... . Probably unrelated, though.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Schtum]

Voltage on all cables seem expected (although I am a bit vague on CAN, 2.4V 2.6V seem about ok for average (don't have an oscilloscope to check it. The bike did have a break in the ignition cable around headstock, but that has been fixed and I cannot spot any other breaks in cabling.

I don't know where you are but I have an old CRT 'scope you can borrow if that would help. There are also software ones available.

 

[Santa-2512]

I think your getting a bit confused with CAN.

Can is purely a controller network that sends data around all the connected modules. Modules only repond to the data they expect / are required to receive.

If they dont need the data, they pass it on to the next module


Sounds more like a dry joint or failing capacitor in the Kombi

 

[Santa-2512]

Just seen the video,

You may have a different problem than you think,

Your start sequence is wrong, and you have a critical (Red) fault


From Key on it should be

Neutral light on & Whirr from the solenoids ,

The red warning triangle lights

Self tests complete it goes to an amber / yellow triangle

when the word "check" extinguishes, the yellow triangle goes off, and the brake /fail lamp starts to flash


If you look at your video, your Neutral light isnt lit

Your Red triangle lights and then flashes yellow and then straight back to Red, and your brake fail light is light straight away

looking at the kombi display, you also have a check engine warning

The only time i get a check engine warning , is if i interrupt the start / check sequence and press the starter

you have a bigger problem than your kombi

Your kombi is doing what it should and telling you, "you have a problem "

 

[abraxas]

I don't know where you are but I have an old CRT 'scope you can borrow if that would help. There are also software ones available.

Thank you for the kind offer, M. Unless it comes with an engineer that know what they are doing... I am a bit stuck

I am not sure it is CAN after all, but I may take you up on the offer if I roun. out of ideas. I'm in Embra, just across the bridge fae the Kingdom. .

 

[Schtum]

Thank you for the kind offer, M. Unless it comes with an engineer that know what they are doing... I am a bit stuck

I am not sure it is CAN after all, but I may take you up on the offer if I roun. out of ideas. I'm in Embra, just across the bridge fae the Kingdom. .

I thought you were in Edinburgh but I couldn't remember. I'd be inclined to take it to Calum Baker at Central Customs in Roslin.

 

[abraxas]

I think your getting a bit confused with CAN.

Can is purely a controller network that sends data around all the connected modules. Modules only repond to the data they expect / are required to receive.

If they dont need the data, they pass it on to the next module


Sounds more like a dry joint or failing capacitor in the Kombi

Entirely possible that I am. While I am an IT guy, automotive engineering is not my forte. Still, I am pretty sure that the OBD connects to ZFE and BMSK., importantly to note - NOT to KOMBI. So, I am pretty sure that one of the components "interprets" the signal from KOMBI. [My money would be on BMSK.] And with the connections i detailed above, it can only be via CAN, really.

I am also thinking it is something in the KOMBI, now...

The next post will take me a bit longer to verify. need to go to the garage to check tomorrow. I may have knocked it into gear, so need to check. I actually think that Neutral light works fine. Also ABS works fine and light goes off after moving off. That, I believe is normal. Then it does "go crazy" with lights. Also the dark polarisation is defo not normal.

Thank you for your help, Santa.

 

[abraxas]

I thought you were in Edinburgh but I couldn't remember. I'd be inclined to take it to Calum Baker at Central Customs in Roslin.

That is a good pointer. Thanks mate. I am really kicking myself. there was a relatively cheap KOMBI on ebay and I missed out as I was abroad. It would have been a cheap diagnostic test...

 

[Santa-2512]

Entirely possible that I am. While I am an IT guy, automotive engineering is not my forte. Still, I am pretty sure that the OBD connects to ZFE and BMSK., importantly to note - NOT to KOMBI. So, I am pretty sure that one of the components "interprets" the signal from KOMBI. [My money would be on BMSK.] And with the connections i detailed above, it can only be via CAN, really.

No your missing the point about Canbus

Think of a clock face, at 12 is the Kombi, the ABS module at 3, the ZFE at 6 and the BSMK at 9

The Abs module develops a fault, so it sends a fault code round the bus,

The ZFE reads the code and decides , i dont need it, and sends it to the BMSK,

The BMSK, reads the code and says yes i need it, and logs the code, and then sends it back into the bus

The Kombi reads the code , trips the ABS fault flag, and sends a message to the BUS

The Abs module reads the message, and acts on it, and sends another message into the bus


ETC ETC

Everything goes round the bus, all the modules are connected, but they only read and act on messages that they need , if they dont they send it on

When you poll with the OBD reader, its pulling data from all modules as each module stores fault codes relating to its functions

And just to throw another spanner into things, some data is stored in more than one module

So Mileage is stored in the Kombi, but also in the ZFE ,

that way when you swap a low mileage Kombi into a high mileage bike, you wont get the low mileage, the Kobmi will start flashing to show something is incorrect

it then needs a session on ISTA to write the correct mileages to the respective units.

Also you said that you swapped ZFE's , that may have given the other modules on the bus, a hiccup, as data they needed would have not been forthcoming

 

[abraxas]

I totally get that. It is the same as Ethernet. the packet headers contain the address of the sender and receiver and a data-payload. it is broadcast on the segment and only the intended recipient accepts the packet, and sends ACK, the rest ignore it.

There is only one issue with that theory in respect of KOMBI. KOMBI has 5 or 6 wires and none of them connect to OBDII socket. OBDII in the K-Line interpretation does not directly connect to CAN. So, I was saying that one of the other modules contains "command interpreter" and serves as a "hub" for KOMBI I think it is BMSK. It is a "more serious 'computer' " and contains storage (EEPROM), CPU, [and I am postulating a command interpreter for ODBII, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, the ZFE does not contain the mileage record. it is the BMSK-P and KOMBI that do. (This I am almost sure of. I looked at raw hex of BMSK EEPROM and swapped a few components around as tests). The ZFE is very simple. chassis electronics - switches, lamps, sensors, indicators, gear position, clutch operation etc. BMSK contains engine map, ignition timing, the immobiliser key hashes (EWS), etc. It also contains a memory record of faults. (so do other modules, but BMSK, I think, holds a pooled list of historic faults) . Swapping ZFE around doesn't really do much in terms of mileage. You are however right that mismatching KOMBI and BMSK mileage hash results in blinking mileage on KOMBI. The ZFE I tested with was similar enough that the bike is happy with it and no faults relating to it were found on ISTA.

In any case, when poling the modules with ISTA most respond but "no response from KOMBI" is returned (and that, I thought, is the reason for the red light on the KOMBI). It does puzzle me that it definitely IS getting data from other components (fuel, gear, speed, rev, etc) will re-test again making sure it is in neutral etc. The bike works just fine. starts and runs and all controls work. The speedo and rev readout is just fine, the ABS works, the gear readout is true and so is fuel level, the high-beam lamp, indicators...

I am leaning towards the KOMBI having an internal fault of sorts. The contrast on the LCD is almost like there is a dry joint somewhere inside. I opened the casing up, but cannot see most of the PCB without major disassembly of the [delicate!] speed and rev-counters and lifting the LCD. Besides, unlikely to be able to do much to fix it myself...

Thanks again for the interest and advice.

 

[Santa-2512]

I totally get that. It is the same as Ethernet. the packet headers contain the address of the sender and receiver and a data-payload. it is broadcast on the segment and only the intended recipient accepts the packet, and sends ACK, the rest ignore it.

There is only one issue with that theory in respect of KOMBI. KOMBI has 5 or 6 wires and none of them connect to OBDII socket. OBDII in the K-Line interpretation does not directly connect to CAN. So, I was saying that one of the other modules contains "command interpreter" and serves as a "hub" for KOMBI I think it is BMSK. It is a "more serious 'computer' " and contains storage (EEPROM), CPU, [and I am postulating a command interpreter for ODBII, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, the ZFE does not contain the mileage record. it is the BMSK-P and KOMBI that do. (This I am almost sure of. I looked at raw hex of BMSK EEPROM and swapped a few components around as tests). The ZFE is very simple. chassis electronics - switches, lamps, sensors, indicators, gear position, clutch operation etc. BMSK contains engine map, ignition timing, the immobiliser key hashes (EWS), etc. It also contains a memory record of faults. (so do other modules, but BMSK, I think, holds a pooled list of historic faults) . Swapping ZFE around doesn't really do much in terms of mileage. You are however right that mismatching KOMBI and BMSK mileage hash results in blinking mileage on KOMBI. The ZFE I tested with was similar enough that the bike is happy with it and no faults relating to it were found on ISTA.

In any case, when poling the modules with ISTA most respond but "no response from KOMBI" is returned (and that, I thought, is the reason for the red light on the KOMBI). It does puzzle me that it definitely IS getting data from other components (fuel, gear, speed, rev, etc) will re-test again making sure it is in neutral etc. The bike works just fine. starts and runs and all controls work. The speedo and rev readout is just fine, the ABS works, the gear readout is true and so is fuel level, the high-beam lamp, indicators...

I am leaning towards the KOMBI having an internal fault of sorts. The contrast on the LCD is almost like there is a dry joint somewhere inside. I opened the casing up, but cannot see most of the PCB without major disassembly of the [delicate!] speed and rev-counters and lifting the LCD. Besides, unlikely to be able to do much to fix it myself...

Thanks again for the interest and advice.

I totally get that. It is the same as Ethernet. the packet headers contain the address of the sender and receiver and a data-payload. it is broadcast on the segment and only the intended recipient accepts the packet, and sends ACK, the rest ignore it.

There is only one issue with that theory in respect of KOMBI. KOMBI has 5 or 6 wires and none of them connect to OBDII socket. OBDII in the K-Line interpretation does not directly connect to CAN. So, I was saying that one of the other modules contains "command interpreter" and serves as a "hub" for KOMBI I think it is BMSK. It is a "more serious 'computer' " and contains storage (EEPROM), CPU, [and I am postulating a command interpreter for ODBII, etc.

To the best of my knowledge, the ZFE does not contain the mileage record. it is the BMSK-P and KOMBI that do. (This I am almost sure of. I looked at raw hex of BMSK EEPROM and swapped a few components around as tests). The ZFE is very simple. chassis electronics - switches, lamps, sensors, indicators, gear position, clutch operation etc. BMSK contains engine map, ignition timing, the immobiliser key hashes (EWS), etc. It also contains a memory record of faults. (so do other modules, but BMSK, I think, holds a pooled list of historic faults) . Swapping ZFE around doesn't really do much in terms of mileage. You are however right that mismatching KOMBI and BMSK mileage hash results in blinking mileage on KOMBI. The ZFE I tested with was similar enough that the bike is happy with it and no faults relating to it were found on ISTA.

In any case, when poling the modules with ISTA most respond but "no response from KOMBI" is returned (and that, I thought, is the reason for the red light on the KOMBI). It does puzzle me that it definitely IS getting data from other components (fuel, gear, speed, rev, etc) will re-test again making sure it is in neutral etc. The bike works just fine. starts and runs and all controls work. The speedo and rev readout is just fine, the ABS works, the gear readout is true and so is fuel level, the high-beam lamp, indicators...

I am leaning towards the KOMBI having an internal fault of sorts. The contrast on the LCD is almost like there is a dry joint somewhere inside. I opened the casing up, but cannot see most of the PCB without major disassembly of the [delicate!] speed and rev-counters and lifting the LCD. Besides, unlikely to be able to do much to fix it myself...

Thanks again for the interest and advice.

I thought it was ZME, my bad, but clearly you know how CAN works,
You say 6 pinouts on the back of the kombi, thats interesting, i couldn't lay hands on my 06 wiring diagram, only my 11 version. And that only shows 5 pins out of the Kombi,

Re OBD connection, looking at the 11 diagram, it pins into the ZFE, so it could be doing one of two things

Calling an interrogation on the can bus, and the modules are reporting, or calling each module individually, and each module is reporting its stored faults

That's how it shows up in the GS911

You access each module, and can call each modules fault codes and clear them

And the option to access each modules
Codeable functions

You can get to the circuit board on the kombi easily, i did it when i sorted out the servoectomy leds on my 06

Trouble is, to do any fault finding you need the schematics, other than looking for the obvious problems

Id be temped to find out whats happening in the start up checks. That maybe giving you the issues