JohnGS1100 Tuning Chip

[Roger 04 RT]

John,
You are doing an impressive job of map discovery and experimentation, well done!

If you have found 100 maps, then you should be able to identify the two I mentioned a couple posts ago for TPS and TPS rate-of-change.

There are three steps to remapping:

1) find the maps and properly identify the axes for each.

2) change the map and test its impact by measuring the change with an LC-2 ahead of any Cat. You have an LC-2 now, why don't you show us some of the detailed logs you've taken? And show the changes at different RPMs and actual road loads. The LC-2 logs are easy to plot.

3) understand the interaction of the map changed with Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation, nothing in this thread shows those measurements.

Regarding testing, the dyno does a poor job confirming your changes do what you say. The initial conditions of RPM and Lambda are most always too lean. The dyno roller only produces 1/2 the road-load at low RPMs and about 1/3 the road-load at high RPMs. And in any case only measures about 6 of the 300 points in the fuel and spark maps. And each of the 6 points is tested for 1 second or less, not long enough to measure the work done by horsepower.

I would say you're doing a great job finding the maps and changing them but still have work to do to measure what the changes do, and a lot more work to understand the how the changes interact with Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation.

Lastly, why not shift lambda on the closed loop bikes and make a map for that? You seem to resist that idea and are missing the best possibility. After all its the low RPMs at small to medium throttle angles that riders care about. Do it matter what the HP is at WOT and 7000 RPM for most riders?

Roger here is my latest project on a R1100S.
I found 100 maps.

Here are :

 

[a2zworks]

Did you empty your fuel tank ? How many Km finally did your run ?

Not yet John, I will this weekend and get back to you.

 

[JohnGS1100]

John,
You are doing an impressive job of map discovery and experimentation, well done!

If you have found 100 maps, then you should be able to identify the two I mentioned a couple posts ago for TPS and TPS rate-of-change.

There are three steps to remapping:

1) find the maps and properly identify the axes for each.

2) change the map and test its impact by measuring the change with an LC-2 ahead of any Cat. You have an LC-2 now, why don't you show us some of the detailed logs you've taken? And show the changes at different RPMs and actual road loads. The LC-2 logs are easy to plot.

3) understand the interaction of the map changed with Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation, nothing in this thread shows those measurements.

Regarding testing, the dyno does a poor job confirming your changes do what you say. The initial conditions of RPM and Lambda are most always too lean. The dyno roller only produces 1/2 the road-load at low RPMs and about 1/3 the road-load at high RPMs. And in any case only measures about 6 of the 300 points in the fuel and spark maps. And each of the 6 points is tested for 1 second or less, not long enough to measure the work done by horsepower.

I would say you're doing a great job finding the maps and changing them but still have work to do to measure what the changes do, and a lot more work to understand the how the changes interact with Closed Loop Mixture Adaptation.

Lastly, why not shift lambda on the closed loop bikes and make a map for that? You seem to resist that idea and are missing the best possibility. After all its the low RPMs at small to medium throttle angles that riders care about. Do it matter what the HP is at WOT and 7000 RPM for most riders?

Roger i try to exlpain that does no matter the close loop. The power goes up by the faster timing advance. The AFR is very little more richer than 14,7 and there is no surge problem work fine. I want the AFR to be richer a topen loop, there is no problem by remaping the AFR at high revs goes to 13,5-12,5:1.

I try to found the "on-of" lambda map for motronic 2.4 and i let you know. It is a simple bit (0 or 1). By this i can send you the bin file of a chip and you can remove the LC2 no needed, the bike will work always on open loop like my R1100GS by little brown CCP (pins 30,87a).

 

[JohnGS1100]

#Roger one question please.

If remove or disconect the lambda sensor on your R1150 what will happen ? What voltage or value gives the "no lambda" to ECU.
Can you post the AFR results as you take by the LC-2 by the lambda disconnect please ?

I want see the results of AFR and i will try to make mods at main injection maps for your bike.

I think that will give a stable voltage and probably i can make the AFR by the main injection maps as you wish, close to 14:1 at low and middle revs and richer at high.

If work it then by one chip and disconected lambda the R1150 will work always on open loop, maybe that's will be great, will no needed any additional expensive hardware like power comander or LC-2.

What do you thinking ?

 

[a2zworks]

I have got the result for a tank full mileage of my 2000 R1150GS 22 litre fuel tank with Stage 8 chip, traveled 435 km.
It was done city/highway combine with most km done with my 35 kg son Ewan as pillion battling strong head winds.
I never ever in the past managed to get anywhere near enough to this many km on a tank full.
It must be said that I am using 98 octane fuel, the bike is running very smooth and responsive.
Well done John for the work that you do
Tomorrow I'll fill up again and in the course of the next week or two do another full to empty on my own this time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JohnGS1100]

WoW !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[a2zworks]

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger i try to exlpain that does no matter the close loop. The power goes up by the faster timing advance. The AFR is very little more richer than 14,7 and there is no surge problem work fine. I want the AFR to be richer a topen loop, there is no problem by remaping the AFR at high revs goes to 13,5-12,5:1.

I try to found the "on-of" lambda map for motronic 2.4 and i let you know. It is a simple bit (0 or 1). By this i can send you the bin file of a chip and you can remove the LC2 no needed, the bike will work always on open loop like my R1100GS by little brown CCP (pins 30,87a).

John, Now we are on the same page. In the case of a Closed Loop Motorcycle, the power might increase by faster advance. My understanding is that it is quite common for consumer engines to be detuned at wide throttle angles, in order to offer a margin of protection at high power level. If you alter the advance, to remove the protective margin, you might well add power at high RPMs and wide throttle angles.

If the R1150 is operated in an Open Loop mode, assuming there is one and that it works, you lose the many day-to-day benefits of Closed Loop operation, which helpfully keeps the fueling where you want it. On an Open Loop bike, changes in air flow, changes in battery voltage, changes in fuel stoichiometry (ethanol quantity and summer/winter blend), and sensor errors--those changes cannot be compensated. The change for ethanol content is a full 4% or about 0.6 AFR, which to me is huge.

This mean that an LC-2 or AF-XIED to properly set a new fueling target in Closed Loop (say at 13.8:1) is a far superior solution to Open Loop. Once you set the new target AFR with the AF-XIED (or LC-2) then one of your chips could be used to improve timing and tweak the wide throttle angle fueling (without touching fueling elsewhere). This will produce the very best running bike.

For those reasons I have no interest in an Open Loop solution.
RB

P.S. I will post an answer to your second question in a few minutes. "What does the Motronic do if you disconnect the O2 sensor?" I have measured this and have data to show.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger i try to exlpain that does no matter the close loop. The power goes up by the faster timing advance. The AFR is very little more richer than 14,7 and there is no surge problem work fine. I want the AFR to be richer a topen loop, there is no problem by remaping the AFR at high revs goes to 13,5-12,5:1.

I try to found the "on-of" lambda map for motronic 2.4 and i let you know. It is a simple bit (0 or 1). By this i can send you the bin file of a chip and you can remove the LC2 no needed, the bike will work always on open loop like my R1100GS by little brown CCP (pins 30,87a).

John,
We are also on the same page on this point. On a Closed Loop bike, above 45-50% throttle you can change the fuel map and the changes will stay--as long as you don't change the fuel maps below 45-50% throttle (if you do then adaptation will confuse the analysis).

However, I don't need my higher fuel values remapped because in the case of lambda-shifting with the LC-2 or AF-XIED, whatever average fuel I add to the Closed Loop area is added to the Wide Throttle angle area through Mixture Adaptation. Below is a chart of my AFR at WOT where you can see my WOT AFR runs at about 12.1:1 which is just a little richer than Best Power mixture, providing a little more engine cooling with no significant loss of power.

So I am getting a nicely rich AFR with NO change to the fuel map.
RB

 

[Roger 04 RT]

#Roger one question please.

If remove or disconect the lambda sensor on your R1150 what will happen ? What voltage or value gives the "no lambda" to ECU.
Can you post the AFR results as you take by the LC-2 by the lambda disconnect please ?

I want see the results of AFR and i will try to make mods at main injection maps for your bike.

I think that will give a stable voltage and probably i can make the AFR by the main injection maps as you wish, close to 14:1 at low and middle revs and richer at high.

If work it then by one chip and disconected lambda the R1150 will work always on open loop, maybe that's will be great, will no needed any additional expensive hardware like power comander or LC-2.

What do you thinking ?

John,

On the Motronic, when you disconnect the O2 sensor, the Motronic measure 450 mV.

You don't have to do anything to get the 450 mV reading because the Motronic hardware has a network of internal resistors that bias the O2- lead to 140 mV and the O2+ lead to 590 mV. It then subtracts the two voltages through an Analog circuit so that the Motronic A/D converter sees 450 mV.

When it sees a steady 450 mV, it recognizes that the O2 is disconnected or non-functional and enters a LIMP HOME FUELING (LHF) MODE. This idea of LHF is that the Motronic spreads the fueling so that sometimes it is 5-10% richer than lambda=1 and sometimes 5-10% leaner than lambda=1. It spreads the fueling this way so that the catalytic converter sometimes sees excess O2 (which recharges the Oxygen matrix in the converter) and sometimes sees on excess O2. This is a sequence that keeps the catalytic converter happier and keeps it reducing CO and NOx.

Because of LHF, it is not a good idea to remove the O2 sensor on a Closed Loop bike. Also, you lose the many benefits of the Closed Loop fueling strategy which I outlined a couple posts back.

In the charts below you can see the results of a test ride with the O2 sensor disconnected the top chart is a disconnect O2 only. The bottom chart is a disconnect O2 and a BoosterPlug install. There are two dotted lines on each chart. The upper line is at 14.7:1 and the lower line is 13.8:1 and are there for reference so it is easier to see AFR readings.

On the top chart, rather than seeing the AFR concentrated near 14.7:1 (the upper dotted line), you see the values spread out. Also you see that the average value is leaner than 14.7:1. The reason for the leaner average value is that the Fuel Map in the Motronic was designed for gasoline with no ethanol and I was running E10 fuel, which is all I can get. So the average AFR was about 15.3:1. Closed Loop fueling normally corrects this. The key point is that with the O2 disconnected you can never stop the Motronic from running its LHF algorithm.

On the bottom chart you see all the same things but the average value is shifted 6% richer to about 14.4:1 (6% richer than 15.3:1). If you look at the histogram, on the right side of the lower chart, you can see the two fueling peaks due to the Limp Home Fueling spread.

You mention the Power Commander, which usually disconnects the O2 sensor (except in the case of the PC III USB with Wideband O2, a good but very expensive product), it results in LHF, normally, which is not ideal.

Rather than seeing the LC-2 or AF-XIED as expensive, you should consider them as an efficient way to shift fueling, which is consistent with how the Closed Loop Motronic works. Then after installing one, use your good knowledge of remapping to fine tune the Ignition Timing and to fine tune WOT fueling. As I keep saying, THIS WOULD BE AN EXCELLENT SOLUTION FOR A CLOSED LOOP MOTORCYCLE.

 

[JohnGS1100]

Many thanks Roger.
What you think about long term trim (without lambda). It 's very easy for me to make the AFR as i wish (if the "no lambda" gives 0,45 Volt) by the maiin injection maps i will make little richer than stock. what you think will be ok ?
And also what about fault stored, (i can change the value on fault stofred maps manualy to the bin file), did you think that stored a value without lambda maps and this make a problem at long time ?

 

[JohnGS1100]

John,

........................................

REALLY usefull graph !!!!!!!

You give an idea to make the R1100S (works by MA 2.4) always to open loop by disconect the lambda and by making the main injections maps little more richer. I think it is enougth plus 6% what you think ?

Many thanks Roger again

 

[JohnGS1100]

I have got the result for a tank full mileage of my 2000 R1150GS 22 litre fuel tank with Stage 8 chip, traveled 435 km.
It was done city/highway combine with most km done with my 35 kg son Ewan as pillion battling strong head winds.
I never ever in the past managed to get anywhere near enough to this many km on a tank full.
It must be said that I am using 98 octane fuel, the bike is running very smooth and responsive.
Well done John for the work that you do ��
Tomorrow I'll fill up again and in the course of the next week or two do another full to empty on my own this time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pablo i made reversion to your photo, i think it is better now

Note that the much better consumption is because the STG8 chip gives expand time ignition to the spark, now your bike work like twin spark, so you should replace earlier the spark, i think after 12.000 miles it is very good.
Also i suggest these strong sparks, it is double platinum stable idle speed better burning.

NGK Laser Platinum Spark Plug DCPR8EKP

Note also because the better burning you have very little CO at exhaust, sure less than Group VW aidan), all will be clear, The fuel burns completely and leaves no residue in the combustion chamber..
What about final speed ? Did you try it ? I think you will have more +10 miles/Hour and the 6 gear is usefull now like 5 gear.

 

[a2zworks]

I have iridium plugs in at the moment you think laser platinum are better?
I'll buy the plugs you suggest and will take photo of old ones and post for you to see.

It's good how some friends think that I have 30L tank!

 

[JohnGS1100]

Your sparks it is ok after complet miles replace by the Platinum. its better.

 

[a2zworks]

Your sparks it is ok after complet miles replace by the Platinum. its better.

Ok will order in a few minutes.

 

[moonhead911]

Your sparks it is ok after complet miles replace by the Platinum. its better.

better thank brisk spark plugs?

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[JohnGS1100]

I dont know about Brisk, many bikers say that is the best, but it is to expensive..

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Many thanks Roger.
What you think about long term trim (without lambda). It 's very easy for me to make the AFR as i wish (if the "no lambda" gives 0,45 Volt) by the maiin injection maps i will make little richer than stock. what you think will be ok ?
And also what about fault stored, (i can change the value on fault stofred maps manualy to the bin file), did you think that stored a value without lambda maps and this make a problem at long time ?

REALLY usefull graph !!!!!!!

You give an idea to make the R1100S (works by MA 2.4) always to open loop by disconect the lambda and by making the main injections maps little more richer. I think it is enougth plus 6% what you think ?

Many thanks Roger again

Hi John,
As long as you're aware that the Motronic MA 2.4 goes into Limp Home Mode when you disconnect the O2 your plan should work. It will depend too on whether it is a single or dual spark. If it was me I'd get the dual spark since the single surges easily.

Since limp home mode varies the fueling by 6%, assuming gasoline with no ethanol, you should add 9-10% since you want good running when the Motronic goes to the lean side of the 6% range. If your fuel has 10% ethanol I would add 13-14% since the Motronic fuel tables were designed for non-ethanol fuel.

But to get the best performance you should use your LC-2 and interface it to the Motronic and keep it closed loop. Here is the how-to link: http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?58505-Wideband-O2-Installation-Overview.

 

[JohnGS1100]

Roger what you tell about sparks. Did you try some diferent models, what are you use now ?