John's tuning chip, don't know if I actually need one!
- Thread starter mspenz
- Start date
Below is the fuel table that John1100GS has read from the R1100. He has done a good job reading and reporting the tables. I've annotated it to show those parts of the table that are covered by Closed Loop operation, in Green and Yellow....
QUOTE]
Interesting scientific breakdown of the general principles...
I thin the general idea of "open loop"/ "closed loop" is fairly easy to understand and with a good experience of 1100/1150 bikes I know that they vary greatly as standard in the way they operate, even though they shouldn't to a point...
As someone who has tried a few things on 11GS's and ridden a few differently "tuned" 1150's as well, all with varying mileage and useage, what is your practical experience and feedback of oilheads that you have ridden and how chip "tuned" and other methods of changing the tune have affected the bike... What oilheads have left you with a good experience and what ones a bad experience, and how did chip tuned bikes not "cut the mustard" for you on a practical level...
I have had good and bad experiences of tuning open looped 11's and have ridden 11/1150 standard bikes that felt almost perfectly set up as well... It would be interesting to hear your "in the saddle" experience of how the bikes rode...
Great reply thanks Roger, think I understood that
And me! But then if the system manages to 'revert' to settings (Long term trim category) over a period of time and any gains are lost then surely it must be possible to do some form of re-set (motronic ?) to regain all the benefits of the new chip and this could then be done at regular intervals
But if you got the filing right!! I had two LC350s which I ported, raised the exhaust 1.5mm, lowered transfers 1mm, fitted two base gaskets and removed the head gasket & lapped the head with fine grinding paste. Stuck on a Micron and WOW, never been so frightened and excited on a bike at the same time as much as that, it would accelerate wheelie easily in 3rd gear but handled like a shopping trolley
Those were the days...
Methinks any bike (like my 99 1100GS) that does not have a lambda sensor or cat is always going to be 'open loop' and so will not self-correct in the yellow and green areas of Roger's table. Please correct me if I am wrong. By the way I was amazed what a difference it made the other day when I checked the TPS voltage (.39) and reset it to .371. Gone is that annoying hesitation on light load part throttle and the bike is much smoother. I didn't do the Motronic reset procedure though (fuse out for 5 min then 3 full throttle openings with ignition on but engine off I believe) after the adjustment. Should I have? All this in preparation to fit John's chip next weekend
Roger 04 RT
Registered user
And me! But then if the system manages to 'revert' to settings (Long term trim category) over a period of time and any gains are lost then surely it must be possible to do some form of re-set (motronic ?) to regain all the benefits of the new chip and this could then be done at regular intervals
The short term trims happen very fast and affect the green/yellow area as soon as you ride at a steady TPS in that cell. The long term trims seem to take a cumulative 15-30 minutes depending on how far they move. So you'd need to reset every hour or so which really isn't very practical.
Since you have no lambda sensor, you have no learning. The main things to know are:
Make sure you know exactly what has been changed in the chip. Convince yourself that the chip supplier has measured all the changes with proper instruments.
Fuel with 10% ethanol is 4% leaner than fuel without it. Make sure your chip is set up for the fuel type you use.
Set your CO POT to 2% CO after the new chip is in.
Make sure you run no coding plug on an 1100RT and a 30-87a plug (I forget the color) on an 1100GS
N.B. The R1150 doesn't have an open loop mode.
tallchris99
Registered user
But if you got the filing right!! I had two LC350s which I ported, raised the exhaust 1.5mm, lowered transfers 1mm, fitted two base gaskets and removed the head gasket & lapped the head with fine grinding paste. Stuck on a Micron and WOW, never been so frightened and excited on a bike at the same time as much as that, it would accelerate wheelie easily in 3rd gear but handled like a shopping trolley
Those were the days...
I first rode a tuned RD350 elsie in the same year as I first got sex. The smell of two stroke oil burning always brings up happy memories.
I first rode a tuned RD350 elsie in the same year as I first got sex. The smell of two stroke oil burning always brings up happy memories.
Bloody brilliant
I want one again now but have you seen how much they are going for (elsies not boobies)??
Fair enough!
Thank's for all the input Roger, maybe you and John should put your heads together and come up with a 'Superchip'....
Roger 04 RT
Registered user
I've actually tried to persuade him to do that. So far, no luck. For the Closed Loop boxers, a good solution is:
LC-2 or AFXIED, plus whatever timing tweaks john could test on a non-inertial dyno. There might also be fueling tweaks outside the closed loop area but one would need to measure the map on a non-inertial dyno to know for sure what cells are covered by closed loop (don't modify those) and which are not (okay to modify).
Here is what Brad said about modding closed loop cells: http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html:
The adaption table, by definition, constantly modifies the fuelling in the Closed Loop area to give a very close approximation of the fuelling required for a mixture of Lambda 1 (14.7:1). This means that if you make any mods to change the air/fuel ratio in the Closed Loop area it will be overridden, sooner or later, by the Closed Loop system. So if you fit a PC3, Dobeck or Dimsport add on box and tune the whole fuel map the Closed Loop system it will return the tuning to how it was previously in the Closed Loop area. But, this is expected, so it’s not a big deal as such. Or, if you knew where the Closed Loop throttle and RPM cut offs were, you could just stay out of that range.
I have had good and bad experiences of tuning open looped 11's and have ridden 11/1150 standard bikes that felt almost perfectly set up as well... It would be interesting to hear your "in the saddle" experience of how the bikes rode...
Go on Roger, give us a heads up of the bikes you have messed with and what worked and what didn't...
Especially the bits on the chipped bikes you've had a shot of that didn't get it right...
Pauly S
Registered user
testing
Right all I want to know after pages and pages of techy stuff,....has anyone put their bike on a rolling road after the new chip fitting,and is the AFR and ign timing correct?
Looking at the blurb,i cant see any evidence of any rolling road testing by john??
My bike is running nicely and I really don't want a holed piston and like.I don't doubt johns technical abilities at all,but neither do I want a bike overfuelling and borewashing,or a bike running lean burning holes in pistons,ive seen the mess it makes firsthand, after rebuilding a fooked 1200 which melted a valve.also I note that rewriting the software on the chip should move the closed loop correction area,ie short term trim and long term trim,i cant see how the ic can reprogram itself back to stock values as the ic only works within certain pre programmed parameters.
Sorry to sound negative,but im a firm believer in doing your homework.
from what I can remember the transfer from short term fuel trim to long term fuel trim takes quite a few drive cycles, anyone know how many?
On a vw polo ive just fixed,it would take about two weeks of daily use for a fault code to re-appear that was emissions based.
I'm tempted to put the bike on a rolling road,note the readings and then swap the chip and go for a re run.
Right all I want to know after pages and pages of techy stuff,....has anyone put their bike on a rolling road after the new chip fitting,and is the AFR and ign timing correct?
Looking at the blurb,i cant see any evidence of any rolling road testing by john??
My bike is running nicely and I really don't want a holed piston and like.I don't doubt johns technical abilities at all,but neither do I want a bike overfuelling and borewashing,or a bike running lean burning holes in pistons,ive seen the mess it makes firsthand, after rebuilding a fooked 1200 which melted a valve.also I note that rewriting the software on the chip should move the closed loop correction area,ie short term trim and long term trim,i cant see how the ic can reprogram itself back to stock values as the ic only works within certain pre programmed parameters.
Sorry to sound negative,but im a firm believer in doing your homework.
from what I can remember the transfer from short term fuel trim to long term fuel trim takes quite a few drive cycles, anyone know how many?
On a vw polo ive just fixed,it would take about two weeks of daily use for a fault code to re-appear that was emissions based.
I'm tempted to put the bike on a rolling road,note the readings and then swap the chip and go for a re run.
Roger 04 RT
Registered user
Go on Roger, give us a heads up of the bikes you have messed with and what worked and what didn't...
Here's the latest example of a re-chipped bike: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=901409#Post901409
Here is the list of bikes that I've helped other riders install LC-1s on so that we could monitor rolling-road AFR of the bikes, before and after lambda-shifting: R1150, R1100, R1200 and F800. For each of these bikes, a few dozen altogether, we've collected extensive LC-1 and/or GS-911 data, all of which has been freely shared and published. Here is one of the threads: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=746671#Post746671.
At this point, I can say with a great deal of confidence and evidence, that how the Motronic and BMSK fuel is now well known.
On the R1100, non-cat configurations, you can re-chip and change timing and fueling at will. A different chip (or coding plug) is needed for gasoline with or without ethanol added.
For R1150 and R1100 with catalytic converters, you can re-chip for spark timing but fueling changes in the Closed Loop parts of the map--where most riding is done and most driveability problems occur--will revert to lambda=1 fueling. It has been measured, it happens.
What needs to happen for any chip changes on an r1150, is for the chip designer to stick an LC-1 or equivalent in the exhaust and attach a GS-911 to the Motronic. Then make a hundred hours or so of test rides (different temperature, fuels, loads and altitudes), logging AFR and Motronic data, analyzing and publishing. I have suggested it and offered to help interpret it but it has not happened. The reason given is that the instruments are too costly, however $500 US buys the whole setup. I don't think that's too much to spend if you hope to sell 1,000 chips worth $60K to $100K. And the 1000 bikes are worth a several million dollars--their value should be taken into account too.
I would put one of the chips in my bike, but I've not yet gotten comfortable. The reason is that John has said that he changes three classes of tables, fuel, spark and lambda maps. Since there are no lambda maps, I'm concerned that he is over-writing other, unknown correction factors. I also don't see the point in installing a chip with fueling changes in the Closed Loop area just to prove they don't stick. My feeling is that the chip designer should do that and show the rolling-road results.
Below is an example of the easy to record charts, my first one showing 5 minutes of AFR data. You can see the shifted baseline of 14.1:1 (from stock of 14.7) and the dips in AFR as the Motronic richens the mixture during acceleration. There are many examples I've recorded of what works, what doesn't and how the Motronic fuels that can be found in the thread I referenced above.
Pauly S
Registered user
The thing to do
I'll chat up the local guy at the dyno, and see if I can use his dyno, using and off and on basis, whereby he lets me mess about with chips and setups in between dyno runs to evaluate the fuelling, and just charge me for the time used on the dyno on a " "stop the clock basis".once I know I can do this i'll order a chip.
I'm certainly not happy unless I know whats been done to the AFR.In the real world, I guess i'll have to fit the replacement chip, and then return for another dyno run in a couple of 1000 miles and re-evaluate to see what the lambda probe has moved in fuel map.I know the chip wont be perfect, but it could be perfectly usable and safe.
I'll chat up the local guy at the dyno, and see if I can use his dyno, using and off and on basis, whereby he lets me mess about with chips and setups in between dyno runs to evaluate the fuelling, and just charge me for the time used on the dyno on a " "stop the clock basis".once I know I can do this i'll order a chip.
I'm certainly not happy unless I know whats been done to the AFR.In the real world, I guess i'll have to fit the replacement chip, and then return for another dyno run in a couple of 1000 miles and re-evaluate to see what the lambda probe has moved in fuel map.I know the chip wont be perfect, but it could be perfectly usable and safe.
Roger 04 RT
Registered user
Would you see if his dyno is equipped to load the rear wheel with a static load so that the starting engine torque would be about 15 NM? This would give much higher quality AFR and low-RPM readings. Most inertial dynos offer no resistance in the moments just before the throttle is opened, if there could be some resistance, the bike would settle into closed loop and would be fueling normally in the early moments of the "pull".
"On the R1100, non-cat configurations, you can re-chip and change timing and fueling at will. A different chip (or coding plug) is needed for gasoline with or without ethanol added.
For R1150 and R1100 with catalytic converters, you can re-chip for spark timing but fueling changes in the Closed Loop parts of the map--where most riding is done and most driveability problems occur--will revert to lambda=1 fueling. It has been measured, it happens."
The first part was the info I was personally most interested in... I have had good results from a well set up dyno'ed chip upgrade on a UK11Gs and have also ridden very good runners as stock... Nearly all of the R11's in the UK are open loop bikes...
The 1150's I rode seemed pussycats after the 11's slow running probs... Interesting discussion though...
For R1150 and R1100 with catalytic converters, you can re-chip for spark timing but fueling changes in the Closed Loop parts of the map--where most riding is done and most driveability problems occur--will revert to lambda=1 fueling. It has been measured, it happens."
The first part was the info I was personally most interested in... I have had good results from a well set up dyno'ed chip upgrade on a UK11Gs and have also ridden very good runners as stock... Nearly all of the R11's in the UK are open loop bikes...
The 1150's I rode seemed pussycats after the 11's slow running probs...
Interesting discussion though...
Pauly S
Registered user
what do you mean by starting engine torque?
I don't think i'm going to bother
Roger 04 RT
Registered user
Typically, a bike is in a high gear (the higher the better to simulate road resistance) and idling at maybe 1500 RPM with no resistance from the dyno roller. A real bike on the road, in that gear (say 6th) would be going 30 mph. The engine to overcome air and road resistance on a level road would be loaded about 5 NM of torque. (I said 15 earlier but 5 is the right number)
That lack of a starting load is why all inertial dyno runs start so lean. It is not the bike that is lean but rather the lack of starting load. This leads to a lean AFR condition that under-reports the real, low rpm torque of the engine.
With a 5 NM starting load the starting afr will be 14.7:1. If it isn't, something is wrong.
Another way to express the amount of load would be 2-3 HP load at the rear wheel, if that is easier for the shop.
Pauly S
Registered user
yep that makes sense, I went into the dyno house today, but the ol boy who owes me a favour was out on an errand, I really don't want them doing all the work, it will cost a fortune,so I just want the sole use of the dyno shed, and them to do the dyno runs and i'll do the spannering.it will need an arm twist.but I'm working on it.
I'll have to order the chip from john and go forward from there.
