K12S in BIKE magazine link

[SQD8R]

http://www2.i-bmw.com/ubbthreads/sh...&Number=100000&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

Hmm- not as good as a ten year old Blackbird then ?

20.9 mpg ??

Broken Gearbox ?

Thanks, - but no thanks.

 

[SQD8R]

I like it but can't justify it to myself. HP/torque that can't be used 90-95% of the time and no carrying capacity compared to the GS. In NA it sells for something like another $8,000 over the GS. Ouch.

 

[ELIMINATOR]

How about that engine in a GS, narrower bike, easier to filter, no need for crash bars, just the bungs.
Could be the ultimate bike?

 

[Mikey]

If I'd wanted to naff tyres like that and have that sort of performance I'd have kept my ZX12

 

[Tsiklonaut]

Excellent!

Now those lazy bastards at BMW Motorrad start to move a bit at least on realistic technial side (not on damn design side). Broken gearbox is a fine thing in front of wide spread media to create some stress on BM engineers that we all really need nowadays. BM never experienced that high RPM and high horsepower/Newtonmetre stressed drivetrain/gearbox.

Though, K12S/R are kickass bikes. If i ever had enough money to buy "sunday ride" to bang, then it'd be certanly K12R. Hayabusa and ZX12 are really agricultural machines compared to it, the K12 beats them on most technical fields and even the looks, there's no doubt about it, even ZX and Hayabusa users admit it now.

I think R-boxer series will very much benefit on drivetrain development based on K12 from 2006 and on. The new HP2 already has reinforced gearbox compared wirh R1200GS I hope the same will be with R1200GS Adventure! Reinforced gearbox and final (preferrably maintainable, not maintenance-free) drive. Looks like BMW Motorrad factory engineers now really have to search some "how to make them more reliable" technical help from cars- and F1 section. I love this kind of approximation.

Margus

 

[GSmonkey]

Just had a K12S as a loan bike for a couple of days. There really is warp drive power on these things and the fuelling is fantastic - it pulls sweetly from 2k - 10k rpm (with new throttle bodies).

Gearbox feels 10x better than the GS, even 1st-2nd clutchless changes were a doddle.

2nd gear is good for 10mph - 130mph, never need the gearbox.

The only downside is that it IS a hypersports machine i.e. very long. Turning circle about 1/4mile Front end felt heavy for a sportsbike, maybe due to the duolever front end and the geometry.

All-in-all a quality motorcycle. I couldn't live with it, new rear tyre every 1500miles sir??

 

[SQD8R]

Hayabusa and ZX12 are really agricultural machines compared to it, the K12 beats them on most technical fields and even the looks, there's no doubt about it, even ZX and Hayabusa users admit it now.

Sorry, I admire the enthusiasm but me-thinks you are looking @ these bikes through "roundel blue" tinted glasses.

The BM is more refined, technically advanced and touring oriented but I doubt ZX12 and Busa owners are crying in their plus 186 mph soup. Their bikes are far from 'agricultural' and past it especially since the MCN test noted that the BM wasn't as smooth as the ZX12. All they have to note is the significant price difference and the fact that BMW still has issues with the gearboxes, FI, and potentially the cams, to feel good about their bikes. I've yet to hear of a gearbox going on a ZX12, Busa or even the 'slow' Blackbird, they tour well and certainly will carry what the K12S will.

 

[Fanum]

I used to be at school with Simon Hargreaves....he was in my class in fact.

His nickname was 'Haggis'.

 

[Aurelius]

Sorry, I admire the enthusiasm but me-thinks you are looking @ these bikes through "roundel blue" tinted glasses.

The BM is more refined, technically advanced and touring oriented but I doubt ZX12 and Busa owners are crying in their plus 186 mph soup. Their bikes are far from 'agricultural' and past it especially since the MCN test noted that the BM wasn't as smooth as the ZX12.

The ZX-12's motor is quite smooth. In that respect, its a major leap forward from their previous bikes, which always required some fiddling and a jet kit to get them to run properly. Unfortunately the ZX-12 harks back to its ZX-11 predecessor in the way it carries its weight. Its a freight train in the corners, even at moderate speeds. The K1200S, on the other hand, corners like a 750, or perhaps a portly 600. The motor is glassy smooth; I'd say its a match for the ZX-12 in that respect, though it lacks some of the ZX's prodigious power. No particular cause for concern, as both bikes are already overpowerd for the street.

All they have to note is the significant price difference and the fact that BMW still has issues with the gearboxes, FI, and potentially the cams, to feel good about their bikes.

So far we have one instance of a gearbox failure. Sticking in second gear sounds like the result of a bent shifter fork, something that could happen on any bike from the type of hammering this one received. Or perhaps the problem arose on the assembly line. No other K12S suffered a similar failure in other tests I've read.

I've yet to hear of a gearbox going on a ZX12, Busa or even the 'slow' Blackbird, they tour well and certainly will carry what the K12S will.

Every brand seems to have its own unique set of problems. Yamahas have always had lousy transmissions, Suzukis are known for ignition system failures, Kawasakis have lubrication problems, sometimes resulting in blown engines, while Hondas are plagued by charging system failures. Coming from a Honda background, that would be my prime concern if I owned a Blackbird. The amount of heat emanating from the engine bay would be another. Even riding one in the North Carolina mountains with temps in the high 60's, was uncomfortably hot; I can't imagine what it would be like in the Summer months here. As far as the alleged reliability of the 'Busa goes, a conversation with my mechanic might go a long way toward dispelling that myth. The 'Busas brought to his shop suffer from a large variety of issues, including self destructing starter motors, broken cam chain tensioners, excessive piston slap, as well as a raft of electrical failures. According to him, its the most problem prone bike he's ever worked on.

 

[SQD8R]

Again love the enthusiasm and I agree with most except ...

The K1200S, on the other hand, corners like a 750, or perhaps a portly 600.

Exactly what 750 are we talking about? Certainly nothing made since 1990 and definitely not a modern 600/750 especially with that wheelbase. It's just not going to happen.

Coming from a Honda background myself, I agree, reliability is all relative. A blown RC51 @ 3,000 km and CBR600RR @ 15,000 km did bring Honda reliability into question, for me, but it was the dealer backup that will see me on one again. If any issues occur with my GS I hope BMW proves just as good. Suzuki has less of a stellar record regarding reliability so I don't doubt those 'Busa claims. Realistically the BMW issues are common for a beta model of any manufacturer. But I don't think the ZX12/Busa crowd is the same as the K12S crowd. If anything the K12S crowd is closer to the Blackbird crowd. But like you said, it's splitting hairs, they're all overpowered for the street. That's exactly why I passed on it.

 

[big gaz]

I can confirm the issues with the busa, Fuel injection problems , starter motor etc. All this in 4000 miles is not that good.
I am hoping to change next year, and the 1200 gs is at the top of my list at the moment.
I have been disappointed with the busa, not with performance, but with the high maintenance costs. To many issues to list including replacing one Injector after it "stuck" open, filling the No3 cylinder, and most of the garage with fuel. The CAT is probably buggered now as a result.
Time to move on, looking foreward to giving BMW a chance after 22 years of "jap" bikes.

 

[Aurelius]

Exactly what 750 are we talking about? Certainly nothing made since 1990 and definitely not a modern 600/750 especially with that wheelbase. It's just not going to happen.

The K12S certainly corners better than my VFR750, or YZF600 - both '97 models, and does even better against Kawasakis ZX-7R, which felt extremely top heavy by comparison. The only modern 750 sportbike is the Suzuki GSXR750, which is essentially a track bike with lights. I haven't ridden one, so I can't comment on its handling. Last weekend, I swapped rides with a friend who owns one of the new ZX-10R's. It makes about the same power as the K12S, weighs about 100 lbs less, and has a much shorter wheelbase. I fully expected it to easily outcorner the KS, but just the opposite was true. For whatever reason, the ZX-10R requires a lot of muscle and body english to turn at high speeds. The amount of power it generates with even the smallest throttle inputs as well as its choppy racetrack geometry makes it quite unnerving in the turns. Wheelbase makes far less difference than one might suppose. I've seen people hussle a Hyabusa through Deal's Gap with amazing ease, and there's a local rider that's doing extremely well with one here at Jennings GP race track. My own GSXR1100 had two swingarms; one standard length and one sourced from a GSXR750 (3" shorter). Swapping them back and forth made little or no difference, other than an increased propensity to wheelie with the shorter swingarm.

Realistically the BMW issues are common for a beta model of any manufacturer.

I certainly hope that the gearbox failure reported in the article you posted was a fluke, or if not, that its something relatively easy to iron out. I generally avoid first year models for the very reason you mention, though in reality few first year models exhibit any serious defects.

But like you said, it's splitting hairs, they're all overpowered for the street. That's exactly why I passed on it.

There are very few places where you could use all of the K12S' available power, but there are many instances when horsepower makes a dramatic difference. Yesterday I rode the K12S for the first time with the local fast boyz (mostly guys on the latest Japanese rice rockets, and one K1200RS). With the 1150GS, keeping up with them in the straights and sweepers was an impossible task; yesterday I was able to pass about 2/3rds of the group by the time we reached our destination.

 

[SQD8R]

The K12S certainly corners better than my VFR750, or YZF600 - both '97 models, and does even better against Kawasakis ZX-7R, which felt extremely top heavy by comparison. The only modern 750 sportbike is the Suzuki GSXR750, which is essentially a track bike with lights. I haven't ridden one, so I can't comment on its handling.

Caulk it up to suspension advancements. I'm sure a modern VFR800 or FZ1 corners better than the models mentioned and the ZX7 was always overweight even from its release, with little advancements over the decade. Considering the K12S has arguably the most technicallyadvanced suspension in the street world I'm not surprised that it's better. Get yourself on a modern sportbike @ any trackday and the story changes dramatically. Cruiser-like wheelbases and an extra 100 lbs does not make a top corner carver.

Last weekend, I swapped rides with a friend who owns one of the new ZX-10R's. It makes about the same power as the K12S, weighs about 100 lbs less, and has a much shorter wheelbase. I fully expected it to easily outcorner the KS, but just the opposite was true. For whatever reason, the ZX-10R requires a lot of muscle and body english to turn at high speeds. The amount of power it generates with even the smallest throttle inputs as well as its choppy racetrack geometry makes it quite unnerving in the turns. Wheelbase makes far less difference than one might suppose.

If we are limiting it to the street, then I agree. Wheelbase and wet weight are not as big a factor as they are on the track and corner speeds are going to be nowhere near what they are on a track. As a ZX10R owner, I agree with your assessment, it's probably why I don't ride it on the street anymore. Being harder to turn is probably down to the lack of leverage compared to the K12S. Look @ the clip-on setting and bar height relative to the seating position TO see what I mean.

It may sound like I'm panning the bike but I'm not. I'm just thinking in realistic terms. It's as much a pure sportbike as my 12GS is a pure dirtbike. It's certainly the most sporting BMW ever and I consider it a sportbike. But only when in its element. It's not a GSXR beater, @ the track with equal riders, and if I was buying one I wouldn't want it to be. At the premium that it is, I'd expect more than just pure performance, and it's certainly more than that.

 

[Aurelius]

Caulk it up to suspension advancements. I'm sure a modern VFR800 or FZ1 corners better than the models mentioned and the ZX7 was always overweight even from its release, with little advancements over the decade.

I'm fairly sure its not the suspension, but the weight distribution that makes the greatest difference. My '75 Goldwing had lousy suspension, but its low COG made it nearly as "flickable" as a CBR600F3. Its not uncommon to see sportbikes struggle to keep up with Goldwings at Deal's Gap. The same holds true for my 1150GS: the suspension upgrade certainly made it more comfortable to ride, but did nothing to improve its cornering.

If we are limiting it to the street, then I agree. Wheelbase and wet weight are not as big a factor as they are on the track and corner speeds are going to be nowhere near what they are on a track.

Exactly. The other factor to consider is how a bike affects rider confidence. Bikes like my Ducati 900SS with its magnesium rims is very lightweight compared to my GS, but that very trait combined with its sharp steering geometry and short wheelbase makes the bike feel very twitchy in turns. The big 1150GS, on the other hand, feels like its glued to the road, which instills confidence and in turn leads to faster cornering.

It may sound like I'm panning the bike but I'm not. I'm just thinking in realistic terms. It's as much a pure sportbike as my 12GS is a pure dirtbike. It's certainly the most sporting BMW ever and I consider it a sportbike. But only when in its element. It's not a GSXR beater, @ the track with equal riders, and if I was buying one I wouldn't want it to be. At the premium that it is, I'd expect more than just pure performance, and it's certainly more than that.

Agreed again. BMW stated aim was not to produce a GSXR beater, but something along the lines of a vastly improved Honda Blackbird. Aside from some worrying news about BMW's transmissions, I'd say they've succeeded. Ironically, had you told me a couple of weeks ago that I'd own one, I would have found that hillarious. My sole purpose in test riding the KS was to confirm my suspicions that BMW had merely produced another overpriced, underperforming, turd, like the K1200RS. Two extended test rides put those beliefs firmly to rest.

BTW, you mentioned something in an earlier post about the high price. I don't know how it pencils out in Canada, but here the K1200S costs only $1000 more than a comparably equipped 1200GS. My out the door price (including sales tax) was $18,040. The 1200GS was just over $17K, and that's without the ($750) ESA suspension option.

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

my lard arsed overpowered crotch rockets faster than yours......


no its not

yes it is

no its not

yes it is


isn't, isn't isn't !

is, is,is !


yawn on.........