Newbie - Broken R1150GS HELP

[CueBall]

My first post here isn't as good as I had hoped as I have just broken down...

Yesterday I experienced an odd issue for the first time. I Left my R1150GS for a week while away on hols. Came back to a bike that wouldn't start. It turned on, fuel pump primed and stopped after 2 seconds,, it cranked happily (loads of power) but just wouldn't fire up (primed the pump multiple times, it cranked happily, it just wouldn't fire). I checked all the fuses (fine), pulled the plugs (perfect), pulled a few connectors (injectors, throttle position etc), cleaned and plugged them back in again, still the same, it cranked but wouldn't start. Checked and swapped relays etc, all ok.

Went indoors for a cuppa, came back out and tried again, same issue, fuel priming, engine cranking, but no start. Thought I'd try it once more before getting the big tools out and it was like some magic had happened, it fired up instantly (as it always has, within 1-2 revolutions of the starter). I hadn't touched or wiggled anything.

Went out and did 50 miles yesterday, it ran, stopped and started like clockwork.

Went out again this morning, it fired up instantly from cold, rode around 10 miles, stopped, got back on, it fired up perfectly again... BUT about 2 miles down the road it cut out instantly while riding, the lights on the dash remained on (as did the headlights etc). While still rolling I dropped a gear and let the clutch out, nothing, it wouldn't get going. Came to a stop, left it a few mins, tried to start it but again, but exactly as yesterday, ignition comes on, fuel pump primes, starter cranking really well with a good healthy battery, but it just wont start, not even a hint that it's trying to.

So where to start?

Side stand switch appears good - Starter won't trigger when it's in gear and the clutch is out with the side stand down (tested on centre stand). Starter triggers in N with stand down.
Fuel pump primes every time I turn on the ignition, for 2 seconds then stops (then I hear it running constantly once the engine starts, this morning was no different).
No erratic rev needle jumps when cranking to start (or try to start)
No rough running (when it does run) & no issues starting from cold.
Engine kill switch appears good - It won't let me crank the starter when its switched, plus when I return it to the run position I can hear the fuel pump prime (as it does when I turn on the ignition).
Fuses & relays good (horn works, fuel pump primes).
Ignition seems good, it turns on & off as it should and the signal to prime the fuel pump works every turn of the key.

I have done some Google work and some things point to the HES (Hall Effect Sensor) but the symptoms of an instant cut out today and not starting don't seem to relate, or maybe they do?

The bike has 67k miles, excellent service history (serviced within the last 500 miles), new-ish battery (lots of cranking power as I have just learnt after trying to start it for 30 mins).

I'm leaning towards something electrical rather than air/fuel given the instant cut out I experienced today and the odd magical recovery yesterday.

I don't what to go at it with a parts cannon as I have time to work it out, but where do I start given what I have already been through?

I am mechanically minded, I can take the fuel tank off, service it, remove wheels, change plugs etc... but replacing a HES might be a stretch with the whole top dead centre bit.

 

[squibb34]

Check through the usual air/fuel/spark stuff, just to eliminate the obvious.

My guess would be the HES playing games.

 

[theoneandonly]

IME
HES, bike is poor starting or not ? coughs, spits , then runs great .
if you turn it on , it fires the plugs randomly , without the engine running ! sounds like frying bacon ( i shit you not )
injectors firing without the crank turning ! lots of weird things , cos it is shorting out and the control box thinks it is running , so fires plugs and injectors.

instant cutout , i'd start at the battery ,and earths , and then the IGN switch.

 

[CueBall]

IME
HES, bike is poor starting or not ? coughs, spits , then runs great .
if you turn it on , it fires the plugs randomly , without the engine running ! sounds like frying bacon ( i shit you not )
injectors firing without the crank turning ! lots of weird things , cos it is shorting out and the control box thinks it is running , so fires plugs and injectors.

instant cutout , i'd start at the battery ,and earths , and then the IGN switch.

Thank you, though the battery is good (it will crank the bike happily), battery terminals tight, need to check the earth's to be fair though.

Can't work out why everything works (starter motor, lights, fuel, ignition, switches etc), but it just won't start - it's like it's been immobilised - although it doesn't have an alarm/immobiliser.

 

[Ian J Hartley]

Thank you, though the battery is good (it will crank the bike happily), battery terminals tight, need to check the earth's to be fair though.

Can't work out why everything works (starter motor, lights, fuel, ignition, switches etc), but it just won't start - it's like it's been immobilised - although it doesn't have an alarm/immobiliser.

My money would be on the HES.

There are two triggers on the HES, 180 degrees apart. One fires the spark plugs (both at the same time) and the other trigger fires the fuel injectors ( Again both at the same time). So for every rotation of the engine you get both cylinder charged with fuel and sparked. Only the cylinder on the compression stroke will fire. The system is referred to as a wasted spark.

Take the plugs out of the bike and leave them connected to HT leads but make sure they are grounded so they can produce a spark. If it’s a twin spark, you only need to remove main plugs, this is to remove compression so you can turn the engine over easily. With the bike in run configuration. That’s ignition on, and run, place the bike in a high gear. As you turn the rear wheel in the direction of travel, you should hear the fuel pump priming this is the fuel trigger for the injectors. If you are lucky and continue to rotate the wheel you may see a sparkplug spark. This test is not a definative test for the HES, but it will help you to understand what happens when the bike is moving. You can do this test with one of the injectors disconnected from the throttle body and placed in a suitable container and you should see the injector spray fuel when the pump primes, but a word of caution as you may have a spark from the plug near fuel.

You may well find that everything works, but I would still lean towards the HES. The wiring to the HES could be breaking down causing a weak trigger, or one or both of the HALL sensors could be faulty.

Either way, though expensive, a HES is a useful item to have as a spare.

As for replacing the HES, it’s easy, just remove black front engine cover. And you will see it under the crank shaft pulley. You don’t need to worry about engine timing as long as you fit the replacement in the same position as the original. Hence the Slotted holes. Of course you will need to remove the alternator belt and crankshaft pulley,

Good luck
Ian

 

[CueBall]

My money would be on the HES.

There are two triggers on the HES, 180 degrees apart. One fires the spark plugs (both at the same time) and the other trigger fires the fuel injectors ( Again both at the same time). So for every rotation of the engine you get both cylinder charged with fuel and sparked. Only the cylinder on the compression stroke will fire. The system is referred to as a wasted spark.

Take the plugs out of the bike and leave them connected to HT leads but make sure they are grounded so they can produce a spark. If it’s a twin spark, you only need to remove main plugs, this is to remove compression so you can turn the engine over easily. With the bike in run configuration. That’s ignition on, and run, place the bike in a high gear. As you turn the rear wheel in the direction of travel, you should hear the fuel pump priming this is the fuel trigger for the injectors. If you are lucky and continue to rotate the wheel you may see a sparkplug spark. This test is not a definative test for the HES, but it will help you to understand what happens when the bike is moving. You can do this test with one of the injectors disconnected from the throttle body and placed in a suitable container and you should see the injector spray fuel when the pump primes, but a word of caution as you may have a spark from the plug near fuel.

You may well find that everything works, but I would still lean towards the HES. The wiring to the HES could be breaking down causing a weak trigger, or one or both of the HALL sensors could be faulty.

Either way, though expensive, a HES is a useful item to have as a spare.

As for replacing the HES, it’s easy, just remove black front engine cover. And you will see it under the crank shaft pulley. You don’t need to worry about engine timing as long as you fit the replacement in the same position as the original. Hence the Slotted holes. Of course you will need to remove the alternator belt and crankshaft pulley,

Good luck
Ian

Thanks Ian,

It's a single spark GS with the earlier headlight switch, so I can turn them all off or just have sidelights then main beam etc.

I think I'll start with the obvious ones (fuel, spark & air), although air, and possibly fuel is unlikely given the instant electrical type cut out I experienced (no splutter, or rough running, just instant shut down of the engine despite the ignition remaining turned on).

Then I'll go from there... Fuel tank will come off (typically have a full tank so it'll be heavy), check all the connections & wires everywhere, clean everything up etc.

I will probably replace some parts while I'm there for peace of mind, such as the ignition coil & leads (although Motorworks want £48 per lead - wow!).

If none of that works then it'll be the HES next, although I am led to believe it's rare for them to fail instantly, rather they start sending spurious signals (which I don't have as a symptom), unless of course there is a complete break in a wire somewhere which mysteriously touched/joined the day before yesterday allowing me to ride, then came apart completely yesterday stopping it from starting at all.

Then I'll do a complete overhaul of the wiring, new loom tape etc before putting it all back together with cable ties that aren't done up as tightly as they are from the factory (wow they put those on tight, constricting wires and not even allowing slight movement anywhere).

Let's see how I get on.

P.S. What's the best way to drain a full tank that's been taken off, as I'd like to inspect the fuel pumps fuel lines inside the tank while it's off.

 

[ThreeDawg]

If none of that works then it'll be the HES next, although I am led to believe it's rare for them to fail instantly, rather they start sending spurious signals (which I don't have as a symptom), unless of course there is a complete break in a wire somewhere which mysteriously touched/joined the day before yesterday allowing me to ride, then came apart completely yesterday stopping it from starting at all.

My HES (which had been rewired some years ago) failed without warning. Rode a couple of miles from my house to get fuel, ran perfectly, and at the pump it refused to start. New pattern HES fixed the problem immediately.

 

[hops]

I am mechanically minded, I can take the fuel tank off, service it, remove wheels, change plugs etc... but replacing a HES might be a stretch with the whole top dead centre bit.

Don't be put off by that, there's very little adjustment in the hall sensor and from my limited experience it makes no difference anyway, you can't really go wrong with the position of it as it only fits one way.

 

[DrFarkoff]

Don't be put off by that, there's very little adjustment in the hall sensor and from my limited experience it makes no difference anyway, you can't really go wrong with the position of it as it only fits one way.

Be easy peasy !!

BUT there is a notch on the pulley to align the Sensor gate Do not just slap it together and squash the tab So it no longer seats and times the unit correctly (as I have had to fix for a few boyos!!)

Older ones usually had the hole on the sensor plate Centre lower between the bolts Basically if you line the bolts up equidistant / centred plate it will work fine

THe alternator tensioner is odd to say the least

Number 1 Test the twist on the belt "As a Guide" before you remove anything!

Then slacken all 3 13mm Hex and then the left side one has a 6mm allen that moves a tensoner up and down the rack to tension the belt personally I use a 2 foot tyre lever and have the belt when under tension to "just" make it to 90 twist without putting real pressure on you to twist it

New belt? Make it a bit tighter as they do stretch

Oh and remember to "NIP" up the nuts Just until you need to applu pressure to the spanner +45 degrees put you right on spec for torque

Another Question when you are cranking and no start ... Does the tacho bounce up and down quite erratically?

 

[CueBall]

My HES (which had been rewired some years ago) failed without warning. Rode a couple of miles from my house to get fuel, ran perfectly, and at the pump it refused to start. New pattern HES fixed the problem immediately.

Sound exactly like this to be fair... I can see (without removing the tank to get a real good look) that there has been some re-wiring in the past, seems to have been well done as they have used decent wrap loom tape rather than the factory slip on plastic tubing that goes brittle and breaks apart after a while. I can see in places where the existing factory loom tubing still exists and is deteriorating (falling apart in places) leaving exposed wires visible.

 

[CueBall]

Be easy peasy !!

BUT there is a notch on the pulley to align the Sensor gate Do not just slap it together and squash the tab So it no longer seats and times the unit correctly (as I have had to fix for a few boyos!!)

Older ones usually had the hole on the sensor plate Centre lower between the bolts Basically if you line the bolts up equidistant / centred plate it will work fine

THe alternator tensioner is odd to say the least

Number 1 Test the twist on the belt "As a Guide" before you remove anything!

Then slacken all 3 13mm Hex and then the left side one has a 6mm allen that moves a tensoner up and down the rack to tension the belt personally I use a 2 foot tyre lever and have the belt when under tension to "just" make it to 90 twist without putting real pressure on you to twist it

New belt? Make it a bit tighter as they do stretch

Oh and remember to "NIP" up the nuts Just until you need to applu pressure to the spanner +45 degrees put you right on spec for torque

This I can defiantly do, I have watched a good few vids on alternator belt replacement which seem straight forward - I've replaced and re-tensioned belts on all my own cars (mostly classic 4x4 Japanese stuff), so hopefully this is similar, just far less space.

How difficult (or not) is the pulley nut removal to get to the HES?

Another Question when you are cranking and no start ... Does the tacho bounce up and down quite erratically?

I wouldn't say erratically, no more than it ever has before, it moves off its resting point slightly (by maybe a few mm) with the RPM input from the starter and returns to rest when you stop cranking, but it's not jumping around like a mad thing...

 

[Steptoe]

How difficult (or not) is the pulley nut removal to get to the HES?

Put socket on pulley nut, attach a long socket wrench.
Hold with one hand, turn ignition on and a quick tap of the starter button , nut is loose.
Then undo normally.

 

[DrFarkoff]

This I can defiantly do, I have watched a good few vids on alternator belt replacement which seem straight forward - I've replaced and re-tensioned belts on all my own cars (mostly classic 4x4 Japanese stuff), so hopefully this is similar, just far less space.

Accessible enough Better than down in an engine bay

Do the front cover bolts with the engine warm! Less chance of breaking an engine cover bolt, Even just get the 4 x 4mm Allens slackened But be careful of the headers and crossover pipes DAMHIK despite having done it 500 times Airheads are worse !! Still have a scar or each forearm from different Airheads (and we do smell a bit like pork chops when burning!!)

Dagga Dagga Gun for the Crank nut is good Or as Steptoe says above

 

[cycleman]

I'm not saying it's the HES, but I would thoroughly check out and where possible short out the side stand switch, and neutral switch to eliminate the easy stuff before I tear into the front of the bike.

 

[CueBall]

So, here's an update... (for ref, this is a single spark, non-ABS, Jan 2001 model)

Spark - There isn't any on either side, not a sausage, checked plugs (all good, new 3 months ago), checked leads (good continuity).
Fuel - Good fuel, both injectors pulled and both fired into a pot very well when engine is cranked on starter.
Ignition Switch - It's been replaced recently by the looks of things, the orange plug is bright, no dirt at all and the wiring and sheath look new.
Side Stand switch - Works as it should, engine won't crank when in gear with stand down, cranks when raised with clutch pulled in - Bypassed to test and still no start.
Clutch Switch - Works, engine only cranks with clutch pulled in when in gear.
Neutral Switch - Neutral light on dash works as it should (test for clutch switch causes engine to crank in neutral but not in gear).
Motronic - Pulled fuse 5 for 10 mins to reset Motronic (in case it somehow got stuck in a HES test mode), re-learnt throttle position, still no start.
Wiring harness and plugs - Inspected for shorts (none found), pulled all plugs apart, cleaned terminals and re-seated, still no start.
HES - Pulled front cover, no damage to pig-tail from alternator belt, it's well routed through its channel and metal fold over tab holder.
HES plug to Motronic - (located on a holder directly above the Motronic) - Has a 6 pin plug, with only 5 pins in use - Plug terminals clean, some degradation to the individual wire sheaths just before the plug as per pic below.

That's all the tests I can think of...

AM I right in thinking that just leaves the HES itself (or the ignition coil)?

New photo · Monday, Jun 23 📸

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[DrFarkoff]

That's all the tests I can think of...

AM I right in thinking that just leaves the HES itself (or the ignition coil)?

Ain;t got No Spark on both sides??

In My Experience ........ It's either the Spark maker "Coil"

Or the thing that triggers the spark maker "HES"


BUT I did have @Tuned In's GS nearly fry me due to a cracked terminal on the Coil connector plug

What a Bastard that was to find! Oh and it was plus HES which is why I got fried as I only found out about it when I was checking something and it started its erratic sparking thing while I was holding the feckin sparkplug
So only work on it with Ignition off!!

 

[CueBall]

Ain;t got No Spark on both sides??

In My Experience ........ It's either the Spark maker "Coil"

Or the thing that triggers the spark maker "HES"


BUT I did have @Tuned In's GS nearly fry me due to a cracked terminal on the Coil connector plug

What a Bastard that was to find! Oh and it was plus HES which is why I got fried as I only found out about it when I was checking something and it started its erratic sparking thing while I was holding the feckin sparkplug
So only work on it with Ignition off!!

Nope, No spark at all on both sides...

I'm leaning towards the HES, as it randomly came back to life for a day, then permanently failed the next - Whereas if a coil fails, unlike a sensor or bad wire to a sensor, it doesn't tend to come back from the dead on a temporary basis.

I think I'll go for a patten HES from Motoworks to see if that solves it, if it doesn't, then I'll go for the coil after that.

I've got a good connection plug and clean terminals to the coil, at least from a close visual inspection.

 

[CueBall]

BUT there is a notch on the pulley to align the Sensor gate Do not just slap it together and squash the tab So it no longer seats and times the unit correctly (as I have had to fix for a few boyos!!)

This bit... So the pulley has a tab/notch which aligns with a secondary plate behind the pulley which is what runs through the HES sensors? So long as that's back in place correctly before doing up the pulley nut, all will be well?

Dagga Dagga Gun for the Crank nut is good Or as Steptoe says above

I have a big battery gun (HGV wheels), won't fit in there with front wheel in situ and don't really want to remove it again after sorting speedo worm gear a few weeks back... Will give the "tap starter" method a whirl on a 2ft wrench and hope it doesn't break my arm!

Anyone know the torque setting on the pulley nut when replacing, off the top of their head?

 

[DrFarkoff]

Anyone know the torque setting on the pulley nut when replacing, off the top of their head?

50NM

 

[DrFarkoff]

This bit... So the pulley has a tab/notch which aligns with a secondary plate behind the pulley which is what runs through the HES sensors? So long as that's back in place correctly before doing up the pulley nut, all will be well?

behind the pulley there is a shaped disc with a gateway cut out and this has the dropped lip at the centre

Which fits into the notch on the crank

Also make sure not to wreck the HES by rotating the crank before it is fully seated and aligned !!