R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!
- Thread starter MartinL
- Start date
Andy Davies
Registered user
Martin
I had exactly the same on my Feb 08 1200. I spotted brake fluid leaking from under the tank just after it had had its 6k service a month ago. The bike was still on the forecourt ready for me to go home. The faulty pipe was a short double right angle pipe that fitted to the ABS block and went round the right hand side of the tank to a flexible hose. When the front lever was pulled, a master cyclinder's displacement of fluid was expelled from around the union. It was tight so the failure can only be due to a pin hole in the pipe or a split in the bundy tube upset.
Fortunately, there were a couple of new 1200s about to be written off after a fire, so one was robbed to allow me to get home.
I'm so glad I checked the bike before riding home (100 mile trip!).
I have since done about 2,000 miles and haven't any further problems - but I always look, just in case!
Andy
Yep, That's the same pipe that failed on mine, 2nd from the left I think. They told me the leak is typically from a fracture where the pipe changes section from tubular to flared, i.e. where it is clamped by the nut, the fluid then leaks up the bore of the nut. If this is right then even a very close visual inspection during a normal service or whatever would not should any flaws.
Did you have any consequential damage from the leaked fluid? Apart from the potential near death experience I'm more p*ssed off having a virtually brand new bike covered in brake fluid necessitating the gearbox change just for cosmetic reasons. There's a school of thought that says they're never the same once the dealers men have done major jobs; I don't necessarily subscribe to this but it's hard not to think along thoses lines when it's such a new machine.
The BMW assist guy offered to order the pipe and repair the bike at my house which would have been a lot more convenient but I wanted the supplying dealer to do it so if there are any paint or lacquer problems in the future they are fully aware of the situation and there is hopefully no room for arguments.
Did you have any consequential damage from the leaked fluid? Apart from the potential near death experience I'm more p*ssed off having a virtually brand new bike covered in brake fluid necessitating the gearbox change just for cosmetic reasons. There's a school of thought that says they're never the same once the dealers men have done major jobs; I don't necessarily subscribe to this but it's hard not to think along thoses lines when it's such a new machine.
The BMW assist guy offered to order the pipe and repair the bike at my house which would have been a lot more convenient but I wanted the supplying dealer to do it so if there are any paint or lacquer problems in the future they are fully aware of the situation and there is hopefully no room for arguments.
R1200GS Brake Failure - More Bad News!
Just had a call from Southport to say they've just found the brake pipes they had in stock to fit tomorrow are not the same as on my '08 bike. I presume this means the '08 pipe set up is different again from the modifed pipes retro-fitted to the earlier bikes to address the pipe failures? The plot thickens....
The correct ones are of course ex-stock Germany so it looks like the end of next week before I get it back.
Any one had any luck getting alternative transport provided in this kind of situation?
Just had a call from Southport to say they've just found the brake pipes they had in stock to fit tomorrow are not the same as on my '08 bike. I presume this means the '08 pipe set up is different again from the modifed pipes retro-fitted to the earlier bikes to address the pipe failures? The plot thickens....
The correct ones are of course ex-stock Germany so it looks like the end of next week before I get it back.
Any one had any luck getting alternative transport provided in this kind of situation?
nemezis
Guest
Long time ago I warned the owners of bikes with Contintental Teves ABS about the danger of cracking pipes connected to the ABS-pressure-modulator.
I recognized the first event in May 2007, it's a very well documented case known by the German authorities and BMW Group, too. I call it the alpha-case, the guy was pissed both about the danger and how BMW handled the problem. They did nothing! In November 2007 they did admit the first time the problems and the investigtation of the German authorities.
Since April 2008 they started something what the call in Germany a "technical action". It's not a recall! The authorities are not allowed to force BMW to do a recall because one circuit is still working with the brakes. AFAIK it's the rear circuit that's still working.
Watch the brake fluid, that was the advice from the BMW press officer in November 2007. The crossed the line with this advice i guess. In the first place they said always watch the warning light, now you have to watch the brake fluid, too.
There should have been a recall, but, hey, it's just the brakes.
deaninkl
Registered user
You were lucky to get away with a scare Martin, a friend of mine in Malaysia had his go on a series of hiarpins in Thailand. He crash into the jungle to save himself going over the edge. Bike was bent up and he lost a finger. BMW Malaysia refused to compensate him in any way. Said the bike was out of warranty and that was the end of it. He had to do the repair work himself, after whch he sold it and bought a Versys..... BMW not doing themselfs any favours these days.
nemezis
Guest
ABS is scary!
nemezis
Guest
ABS is scary!
This kind of brake failure with the Continental Teves ABS does NOT show up with perfect regular brakes. Because perfect regular brakes do not have a pressure modulator nor these brake pipes that crack as a result of vibrations.
But always remember: The law in Europe does not allow any of the 27 motor safety authorities to recall ABS brakes on motorbikes as long there is the second braking circuit still working. That does mean you have 1/4 amount of braking effect but that's legal. Legal means no recall. And that's the safety of ABS brakes.
Perfect regular brakes do not have these ABS-brake failures because of defects with the ABS pressure modulator (residual brakes, cracking pipes), because there is no ABS pressure modulator.
There might be need for somebody to think about the term safety again.
dronning
Guest
A cracked/ruptured brake line is a safety issue and can happen on ANY type of system - ABS - modulated or not. To say it NEVER happens on non ABS systems is clearly not true! I know because I have had a line rupture on a non-ABS bike, yes it was years ago but it was a new bike at the time. To call regular brakes "perfect" implies no chance for failure.
I remember when the motorcycle companies started to eliminated cables & rods and went to hydraulics, there were those that did not trust the "NEW" technology because there were failures like ruptured o-rings stuck calipers etc... I have also broken brake cables and rods in my years of riding. The fact that the hydraulic brakes helped you stop in 1/2 the distance and became reliable eventually converted everyone
Having owned ABS and non-ABS bikes I believe ABS will save 10x the number of people than they would potentially put in danger.
Should all defects be fixed - yes.
MHO
Dave
I remember when the motorcycle companies started to eliminated cables & rods and went to hydraulics, there were those that did not trust the "NEW" technology because there were failures like ruptured o-rings stuck calipers etc... I have also broken brake cables and rods in my years of riding. The fact that the hydraulic brakes helped you stop in 1/2 the distance and became reliable eventually converted everyone
Having owned ABS and non-ABS bikes I believe ABS will save 10x the number of people than they would potentially put in danger.
Should all defects be fixed - yes.
MHO
Dave
Very true Dave. It may be that the solid lines on an abs unit are more likely to crack though. Why can't they use a small bore flexi braided hose to allow some flex
I guess that it won't effect the system too much as there is flexi hose going to your calipers.Maybe a special BMW stick to throw in the spokes in case of emergency would be appropriate
Nemesis, if ABS is so bad then all the other manufacturers who are fitting it must be wrong too
st247
Registered user
Nemesis, if ABS is so bad then all the other manufacturers who are fitting it must be wrong too
Especially as Hondas new system apparently removes control completely from the rider once you get past a predetermined level of braking, and has electronic servos.
nemezis
Guest
sorry guys, here is my opinion (please don't take it personally, it's just my personal opinion):
if somebody is so ****ed up when it comes to riding a motorcycle that his fun with riding a bike and life depends on a motorcycle-ABS, he should stop riding and try something else like taking a walk or taking a taxi.
as I said before ABS on motorcycles is dangerous:
1. FTE automotive: residual brakes
2. Continental Teves: cracking pipes
both faults lead to a loss of a significant amount of braking force. none of these faults can shappen to a bike that is equipped with perfect regular brakes. none of these faults!
somebody should try and think about what the term safety means in real life. all I need are a good pair of brakes that are reliable. others need ABS and the risk of the faults ([1],[2]).
just my opinion.
if somebody is so ****ed up when it comes to riding a motorcycle that his fun with riding a bike and life depends on a motorcycle-ABS, he should stop riding and try something else like taking a walk or taking a taxi.
as I said before ABS on motorcycles is dangerous:
1. FTE automotive: residual brakes
2. Continental Teves: cracking pipes
both faults lead to a loss of a significant amount of braking force. none of these faults can shappen to a bike that is equipped with perfect regular brakes. none of these faults!
somebody should try and think about what the term safety means in real life. all I need are a good pair of brakes that are reliable. others need ABS and the risk of the faults ([1],[2]).
just my opinion.
st247
Registered user
nemezis
Guest
As I said before: It's legal! Because it's legal, there's no recall!
1. residual brakes are legal, no recall
2. cracking pipes and loss of one braking circuit is legal, no recall
brake failure 1 and 2 do only happen with ABS-brakes, not with perfect regular brakes. You end up with 1/4 of braking efficiency. that's legal.
result: ABS-brakes are dangerous, perfect regular brakes are safe.
There might be riders that love, need and believe in ABS. I just ride and have fun.
That is a non sequitur. It's like saying planes can crash so planes are dangerous.
A dangerous assumption. I seem to recall (though I can't be bothered to go looking for it) stories of brake lines splitting on some of the older models.
nemezis
Guest
Nope. And I was not talking about planes. I was talking about motorcycles and in specific BMW motorcycles that are equipped with ABS and BMW motorcycles that are equipped with perfect regular brakes!
The ABS since about December 2001 is the FTE automotive Integral-Brakes, which are power assisted. The ABS since August 2006 is the Continental Teves Integral-Brakes. Both ABS-brakes offer the risk of a significantally loss of braking efficiency. European law is that motorcycles with 2,5 m/s2 deceleration are legal. Which means that loosing about 3/4 of braking efficiency is legal. Therefore none of the ABS systems was recalled, because ABS-buyers get what they deserve:
A loss of about 3/4 of braking efficiency.
These faults with the ABS brakes in question cannot ever happen to perfect regular brakes. First, perfect regular brakes don't have power assistence, therefore they cannot loose power assistance and let the rider alone with what is called residual brakes. Second, perfect regular brakes don't have solid brake pipes fitted on a pressure modulator, that crack because of vibrations and bad montage. Simply because perfect regular brakes don't have a pressure modulator.
That said KISS is a universal concept for safety when it comes to brakes. My guess is that riders should get some experience with riding a motorcycle under different conditions instead on believing in electronic gimmicks that won't help them if they got lucky loosing 3/4 of braking efficiency.
Just a thought this one, but if you have "Linked Brakes" ie the back brake is applied even when you're not pressing the back brake pedal, if you were unlucky enough to have just "residual braking" on the front brake, I'm guessing the back brake would still work. Admittedly it's nowhere near as good, but it's better than next to FA surely.
nemezis
Guest
That's what I said. ABS-buyers get what they deserve. They deserve the loss of about 3/4 braking efficiency which complies with the law in the European union for motorbikes, 2,5 m/s2 deceleration.
In the case of FTE-ABS, they get the residual brakes. In case of the Conti-ABS, they get the rear brake alone.
Personally I am lucky with about 9-10 m/s2 deceleration anytime with my perfect regular brakes, because none of the (legal) ABS brake failures can ever happen to me. I can't say that I could handle a loss of 3/4 of braking efficiency well.
That's it. But there are others that do like residual brake function on ABS-brakes and cracking pipes on ABS-modulators which both lead to a significantally loss of braking efficiency. Again, I couldn't handle that.
You seem to miss my point as you appear to confuse what must happen with what may happen. Not all, in fact probably very few ABS bikes, will fail. That they may fail is important to know but to argue that ABS brakes are dangerous per se and abs equipped riders "get what they deserve" is both illogical and insulting.
How naive can you get? Do you really think that your system can not fail? It may not be likely but it can happen. Maybe not the precise fault but there are documented instances of line failure on GSs giving no residual braking at all - I'd rather have 25% efficiency thanks.
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