R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!

[nemezis]

in fact probably very few ABS bikes, will fail.

One single brake failure that can only happen with ABS brakes is one too many for me. And indeed there are lot's of reports of brakes failures with ABS-brakes both FTE automotive (residual brakes) and Continental Teves (cracking pipes).

and abs equipped riders "get what they deserve" is both illogical and insulting.

Insulting? It's just my opinion! And of course it is logical. They only deserve 1/4 of braking efficiency. Just ask VOSA or any of the 26 other traffic safety authorities in the European Union. None of these can recall the ABS in question due to the fact that ABS riders only deserve 1/4 of braking efficiency.

How naive can you get? Do you really think that your system can not fail? It may not be likely but it can happen. Maybe not the precise fault but there are documented instances of line failure on GSs giving no residual braking at all - I'd rather have 25% efficiency thanks.

Now show me, please! As I said before there are riders out there that like beeing lost with 25% efficiency. Again, I couldn't handle that. I am good in riding and I need no ABS or such BS, but 25% efficiency would kill me instantly.

 

[BBB61]

Insulting? It's just my opinion! .

There is nothing logical about you and your internet war of terror against BMW ABS and braking systems. You just repeat the same old rubbish without ever substantiating your views. You have been challenged many times in a number of forums to back up your claims with hard evidence, but you have failed to do so time after time.

 

[nemezis]

There is nothing logical about you and your internet war of terror against BMW ABS and braking systems.

You sound like 14 year old girl that just got her period and is crying. That said I will treat you like a 14 year old girl that just got her period.

My statement is, that I cannot handle 25% braking efficiency. My question is, how these guys that depend on ABS can handle 25% braking efficiency.

There might be something wrong with the law. Guys that need help deserve 25% braking efficiency. That is the law. Just ask VOSA or the DoT.

 

[cookie]

One single brake failure that can only happen with ABS brakes is one too many for me.

well don't buy one then

is that too simple?

 

[nemezis]

well don't buy one then

is that too simple?

You are right.

But I'm pissed about all these guys whining about their ABS brake failures. I can't hear that no more. I can't take it no more. The should buy ABS but then be quiet.

 

[yahoorsir]

had a scary brake moment also......

on sunday the rear brake caliper on my 2003 1150gs came loose and jammed itself between wheel and swing arm at 70 mph , locked up rear, big skid, scary stuff . gaffer taped the caliper to rear footrest to get back to Fife from North Uist in the Hebrides, got a second hand caliper from motor-parts for £40 , in the post.
Had a new back tyre put on a month before so don't know if they didn't use lock tite or not torqued the caliper bolts etc....

 

[nemezis]

so don't know if they didn't use lock tite or not torqued the caliper bolts etc....

For that reason I always check the caliper bolts myself. Had the same experience like you (front caliper).

 

[deaninkl]

You are right.

But I'm pissed about all these guys whining about their ABS brake failures. I can't hear that no more. I can't take it no more. The should buy ABS but then be quiet.

then dont listen. go throw your wobbly elsewhere. we've all listened, you've made your point. now shut the feck up

 

[Palerider]

...

How on EARTH can you state that ABS buyers get what they deserve? What sort of adult, objective opinion is that?

If you don't like what people are saying then please, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!

 

[Paul Wakefield]

I am good in riding and I need no ABS or such BS, but 25% efficiency would kill me instantly.<!-- / message -->

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you seriously saying that 25% efficiency is worse than the no braking at all (or possibly back brake only) in my example?

 

[BBB61]

You sound like 14 year old girl that just got her period and is crying. That said I will treat you like a 14 year old girl that just got her period.

.

Ah, if your flawed argument doesn't work, then resort to personal insults. That will really show them

 

[MartinL]

Is it just me or is this getting silly?

Nemezis, I find it strange you think I deserved a potentially lethal experience because I bought a bike with ABS and just for the record I (and I guess most people here) don't rely on ABS any more than a pilot might rely on his parachute but it's good to have it there in an emegency. Were you a BMW employee who got fired?

Lets get back to the facts:

1, There is a known problem with steel line fractures on ABS equipped bikes.

2, The manufacturer recognises this but does not rate the (corporate) risk high enough to trigger a recall. The law only plays a part in this, brand image and lost sales are all.

3, As far as this forum goes we don't appear to know what the actual failure rate / likelyhood / Mean Time Between Failure is. If the couple of respondants to this thread are the only people affected then it is statistically a very low risk (small comfort if it's you - just ask me about it!). If there are several tens or hundreds of people who have actually had failures then that's a different story.

 

[nemezis]

I bought a bike with ABS and just for the record I (and I guess most people here) don't rely on ABS any more than a pilot might rely on his parachute but it's good to have it there in an emegency.

Are you sure that the ABS on your bike will help you in a situation that you call an emergency? AFAIK all you experienced was an emergency because of your ABS brakes! I do personally rely on my own rider skills and not on a defective ABS design: Obviously some guys need ABS so bad that they do not think about the reason there is such thing as residual brakes and solid brake pipes on the abs modulator that crack under normal conditions. On a safety system, as they call it! This is BS!

Lets get back to the facts:

1, There is a known problem with steel line fractures on ABS equipped bikes.

right.

2, The manufacturer recognises this but does not rate the (corporate) risk high enough to trigger a recall. The law only plays a part in this, brand image and lost sales are all.

That's not right. They do know about the fractures at least since May 2007. And there has been some pressure from the German media in November 2007. And the German authorities investigated the alpha case, but said they are not allowed to force BMW to initiate a recall. BMW initiated somthing what is know as a "technical action", something like a campain, they are replacing the defective design of the old pipes with pipes that have a new design.

3, As far as this forum goes we don't appear to know what the actual failure rate / likelyhood / Mean Time Between Failure is. If the couple of respondants to this thread are the only people affected then it is statistically a very low risk (small comfort if it's you - just ask me about it!). If there are several tens or hundreds of people who have actually had failures then that's a different story.

What I say is: If ABS brake failures happen to me, I don't ask for statistics. I ask for the asshole that designed stupid things like 'residual brakes' and 'steel lines with a defective design'.

None of these failures would happen to anybody if some engineers would to their work. It's a pity they are Germans, really. I am ashamed.

 

[MartinL]

Engineers are human. Humans make mistakes. I guess from your attitude you have never designed or made anything?

The real villains of the piece are the senior managers who put life below profit. Of course we don't know this is the case; we always have to accept some risk. If one component fails out of ten million should the manufacturerer close down and stay at home in case some one gets hurt? No of course not. If the failure rate is high then of course it must be addressed.

So come on - what are the proven facts?

How many actual failures have been recorded?

 

[nemezis]

Engineers are human. Humans make mistakes.

Two mistakes with BMW ABS:

1. 'residual brakes' (FTE automotive ABS., Dec 2001-Aug 2006)
2. 'steel lines with a defective design' (Continental Teves ABS, Aug. 2006-)

A safety system with a mistake, with a defective design, is that a safety system?

My guess is that German engineers just don't do their job. At least there are engineers in Japan that do their job obviously much better. I never heard of any problem with the HONDA ABS.

Anyway this is not my problem. It's the problem of guys that ride BMW motorcycles with ABS. I wouldn't do that based on the fact that even after changing the defective steel lines desing brake failures because of cracking pipes happend!

How come that KTM is using flexible lines on their ABS-Adventure bike?

 

[BBB61]

Engineers are human. Humans make mistakes. I guess from your attitude you have never designed or made anything?

The real villains of the piece are the senior managers who put life below profit. Of course we don't know this is the case; we always have to accept some risk. If one component fails out of ten million should the manufacturerer close down and stay at home in case some one gets hurt? No of course not. If the failure rate is high then of course it must be addressed.

So come on - what are the proven facts?

How many actual failures have been recorded?

Martin,

You are wasting your time asking Nemizis/Dr ABS Brake/whatever name he is using today for any proven facts. When asked, he always avoids the question. You should go over to Advrider.com and do a search on Dr ABS Brake and you will find a very long thread started by Nemizis. He was challenged many times to provide proven facts and failed miserably.

Rumour has it that the problems with the brakes on his own BMW were caused by his own interference.

 

[nemezis]

that the problems with the brakes on his own BMW were caused by his own interference.

The 14 year old girl needs some technical advice, i guess.

I have never had any problems with brakes on my own BMW, therefore problems that do not exist were not caused by my own interference.

In fact I experienced that the brakes worked as designed. Which means that the effect of 'residual brakes' on 1150GS bikes reduces braking efficiency by 75% and in addition that the lift off protection releases the brakes completely when braking harsh / sporty.

That said I never had any problem with brakes on my own BMW. The brakes worked as designed. The design is flawed and therefore BMW dropped the power assisted brakes and offered Continental Teves the contract. FTE automotive did shut down the 2-wheel division some month ago.

It's a shame that now the Continental Teves ABS does show a design flaw, too (steel lines). My guess is that BMW engineers could learn from KTM engineers. These ABS bikes are equipped with flexible lines... how come?

 

[BBB61]

The 14 year old girl needs some technical advice, i guess.

I don't need it from you. We are still waiting for you to back up your claims with evidence. I guess it will be a cold day in hell before that happens

I have never had any problems with brakes on my own BMW,

So this campaign you have been waging for the last 4 years has been based on a fabrication? You didn't have any problems with your brakes at all?

I never had any problem with brakes on my own BMW.

No, I wasn't seeing things, you have stated again that you didn't have any problems with brakes on your own bike. So the thread you started on Advrider was a pack of lies then?

 

[st247]

Nemezis, as your in the mood, how about some answers?

1. Do you rush from your appartment to place your towel on a sun lounger before sunrise whilst on holiday?

2. Is it true that you have no sense of humour?

3. Do you wear lederhosen whilst riding?

I have never had any problems with brakes on my own BMW...

But I'm pissed about all these guys whining about their ABS brake failures. I can't hear that no more. I can't take it no more. The should buy ABS but then be quiet.

Given these two quotes why do we have to hear your consant whinning about deadly braking systems when you've had no problems?

 

[MartinL]

Martin,

You are wasting your time asking Nemizis/Dr ABS Brake/whatever name he is using today for any proven facts. When asked, he always avoids the question. You should go over to Advrider.com and do a search on Dr ABS Brake and you will find a very long thread started by Nemizis. He was challenged many times to provide proven facts and failed miserably.

Rumour has it that the problems with the brakes on his own BMW were caused by his own interference.

I'd pretty much come to that conclusion Bob! If this was a phone conversation I'd have hung up...

It's human nature to angry or upset by problems but personally I always try to rationalise the situation and think like an engineer and not a victim. The good news is the bike was repaired today and will be back with me tomorrow (they also fitted a new ring antenna - see thread ref.EWS) so happy days! I don't intend to let the problem lie however. Instead of whinging I will be sending BMW a registered letter asking some searching questions. I probably won't get any straight answers but at least I'll have made my point.