R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!

[MartinL]

I was talking about the finish on the gearbox casing, nothing to do with the brakes.

Steel lines are used on countless bikes, cars, trucks aircraft etc. both ABS and non-ABS. Steel is also material of choice for high pressure pipework on myriad hydraulic systems many of which operate at far higher pressures and with greater vibration and shock loadings than any motor vehicle. The failures we have been discussing are due to a particular system design issue or specific material issues and not because steel pipes are used generically.

I would suggest the only one being alarmist is you, Nemezis

 

[mpdouglas]

Nemezis

I was riding behind a Triumph Daytona rider 2 years ago. A pedestrian suddenly stepped out in front of him. He swerved to avoid her and hauled his brakes on as hard as he could. His bike started to do a stoppie. As a result, his head was now the furthest point forward and was struck by a mail van coming the other way. He bled to death on the road. The bike was not touched by the van and fell to its side.

Had he been riding with ABS, his bike would have stayed flat and the front wheel would have struck the van, not his head. He would have got seriously hurt but would probably still be alive. He was only doing about 35mph.

In real world situations, away from Playstation fuelled dreams about cadence braking in emergency situations, ABS has a genuine role to play. Anyone that thinks different needs to witness first hand what happens in emergency situations before expressing such vitriolic opinions on genuine attempts by manufacturers to make motorcycling safer.

 

[Malcvtr]

Nemezis

I was riding behind a Triumph Daytona rider 2 years ago. A pedestrian suddenly stepped out in front of him. He swerved to avoid her and hauled his brakes on as hard as he could. His bike started to do a stoppie. As a result, his head was now the furthest point forward and was struck by a mail van coming the other way. He bled to death on the road. The bike was not touched by the van and fell to its side.

Really? What a totally bizarre accident.

I am impressed by your accident analysis abilities which enable you to predict that, with ABS, the other variables in this incident would have combined in such a way to yield a happier outcome.

His helmet couldn't have been much cop though, since I guess the bleeding came from a fractured skull? So perhaps if he'd had a better helmet... I guess we'll never know.

 

[mpdouglas]

Van at 35mph meets biker head going the oopposite direction at 35mph = closing velocity of 70mph. Anyone that thinks their helmet is going to save their head in a 70mph collision with the A-pillar of transit van is placing false confidence in their safety gear!

I'm no safety expert but his head hit the A-pillar because his brakes were essentially spitting him over the handlebars. Specifically the sort of behaviour that ABS is designed to prevent.

My real point is that there are lots of opinions in threads like this from people who haven't a notion of what actually happens in an emergency situation and acting as if their opinions are fact.

Anyone that believes they are able to apply race track type braking techniques in genuine emergency situations and outperform ABS is kidding themself.

 

[MartinL]

Anyone that believes they are able to apply race track type braking techniques in genuine emergency situations and outperform ABS is kidding themself.

Spot on.

 

[Malcvtr]

Van at 35mph meets biker head going the oopposite direction at 35mph = closing velocity of 70mph. Anyone that thinks their helmet is going to save their head in a 70mph collision with the A-pillar of transit van is placing false confidence in their safety gear!

I'm no safety expert but his head hit the A-pillar because his brakes were essentially spitting him over the handlebars. Specifically the sort of behaviour that ABS is designed to prevent.

My real point is that there are lots of opinions in threads like this from people who haven't a notion of what actually happens in an emergency situation and acting as if their opinions are fact.

Anyone that believes they are able to apply race track type braking techniques in genuine emergency situations and outperform ABS is kidding themself.

Well, there's some extra information there, but it still remains a totally bizarre accident as far as I'm concerned. For example, this guy is "only doing about 35mph" (first post). He then swerves and "hauled his brakes on as hard as he could. His bike started to do a stoppie." Unfortunately for him, friction seems to have been suspended momentarily because he's still doing 35mph when he hits the van (second post). How unlucky is that?

My only point is that when we're talking about such things - which we do very often on this forum - anecdotes like this are brought up ad nauseum and used as hard fact. Which, I guess, is exactly what you were saying when you said "there are lots of opinions in threads like this from people who haven't a notion of what actually happens in an emergency situation and acting as if their opinions are fact."

The idea that ABS will prevent a stoppie seems to be misplaced confidence judging from MartinL's first post in which he wrote, "After the running in period I gave the brakes a really good work out practicing E-stops hard enough to lift the back wheel..." It's a complicated old world, innit?

 

[mpdouglas]

Malcvtr - unlike other opinions - mine are at least based on first hand observation of real situations.

Totally bizarre it may seem but it happened. On a central London road, caused by a plain old pedestrian stepping out from behind a plain old bus with a plain old vehicle coming the other way. Happens every minute of every day of the week. Perhaps it is because you perceive it as bizzare that you don't conceive that it could happen to you or that some rider aids could assist you in dealing with it?! This is a trait you clearly share with many of the buffoons I see every morning passing buses at speed with vehicles coming the other way, assuring yourself that if someone steps out you'll just run them down. Well guess what - your brain won't let you! 12 year old kid suddenly in your path - what do you do? Mow them down or brake and swerve to miss them?

On the velocity point, you are clearly a very clever person. Perhaps you could calculate for me how much residual momentum the rider had as he flew over the handlebars. I have tried to provide as much information as possible to depict a real life situation to support my opinions. This is alot more than others (you included) seems to do! But why let some hard evidence get in the way of a good forum debate?!

On all my ABS bikes to date (4 of them), I've never been able to get the rear to lift under extreme braking. That is what ABS is designed to do - if the sensors detect no motion from the front wheel, the brakes get momentarily released. Of course it may rise momentarily, but spit you over the bars in a stoppie - no way.

 

[patzx12]

I am not sure if conventional tele forks work well with ABS. The breaking is good on the 1200gs due to the front suspension. My 07 GT goes a step further. the suspension set up must be the most sophisticatedon any bike available today. I had to do 2 emergency stops in Italy last June one was from 140mph fully loaded 2 up. The stability on the brakes was amazing. Flat and controlled with the suspension allowing the front and rear brakes to work.
And the ABS did not trigger.

 

[Malcvtr]

Malcvtr - unlike other opinions - mine are at least based on first hand observation of real situations.

Totally bizarre it may seem but it happened. On a central London road, caused by a plain old pedestrian stepping out from behind a plain old bus with a plain old vehicle coming the other way. Happens every minute of every day of the week. Perhaps it is because you perceive it as bizzare that you don't conceive that it could happen to you or that some rider aids could assist you in dealing with it?! This is a trait you clearly share with many of the buffoons I see every morning passing buses at speed with vehicles coming the other way, assuring yourself that if someone steps out you'll just run them down. Well guess what - your brain won't let you! 12 year old kid suddenly in your path - what do you do? Mow them down or brake and swerve to miss them?

On the velocity point, you are clearly a very clever person. Perhaps you could calculate for me how much residual momentum the rider had as he flew over the handlebars. I have tried to provide as much information as possible to depict a real life situation to support my opinions. This is alot more than others (you included) seems to do! But why let some hard evidence get in the way of a good forum debate?!

On all my ABS bikes to date (4 of them), I've never been able to get the rear to lift under extreme braking. That is what ABS is designed to do - if the sensors detect no motion from the front wheel, the brakes get momentarily released. Of course it may rise momentarily, but spit you over the bars in a stoppie - no way.

My my! You seem to have become a little irked by my comments. C'est la vie. Buffoon? Moi?

Well, buffoon I may be and I'll have to defer to your superior riding abilities/aids, but I've ridden motorcycles since 1972 and am still honing my skills. In those 36 years, I have never witnessed an accident of the type you describe and I can't remember hearing about one either, to be honest. Still, you live and learn.

Malc the Buffoon

 

[mpdouglas]

If you read my post, I did not call you a buffoon. I merely stated that you appear to share some of the beliefs held by those that I witness most days. I have not seen you ride so cannot comment. You are of course free to include yourself if you feel it appropriate!

 

[Malcvtr]

If you read my post, I did not call you a buffoon.

 

[MartinL]

The idea that ABS will prevent a stoppie seems to be misplaced confidence judging from MartinL's first post in which he wrote, "After the running in period I gave the brakes a really good work out practicing E-stops hard enough to lift the back wheel..." It's a complicated old world, innit?

I did consider making that point but I thought the important bit was the fact that almost nobody, regardless of experience will control one-off panic braking as well as the ABS computer.

As for stoppies, they are the product of forward weight transfer causing the bike to rotate about the front wheel spindle. The harder you brake , the more weight transfer. All this is dependant on suspension behaviour, friction between road surface and tyre, rider weight and position etc. etc. Whilst I was only talking about getting the rear wheel a couple of inches off the ground I'm sure a stunt guy would be able to deliberatly shift his weight forwards and generate a big rolling stoppie. The only way ABS would prevent this is if it included accelerometers and tilt angle sensing and I'm not sure the systems we are talking about here are that sophisticated?

I must admit I think I'm with you Malc in tending to take what I read on t'interweb with a big handful of salt but then again, road traffic accidents do often produce bizarre results. How often have you passed the aftermath of an accident and been puzzled as to what could of happened?

 

[Malcvtr]

All very fair comments, Martin.

 

[Deleted account 210609001]

I don't want to become embroiled in this argument and risk being accused of buffoonery, but I don't think ABS prevents stoppies, does it? It's there to prevent wheels locking, not brakign har denough to lift the rear wheel.

I thought the bikes with ABS had two separate ABS circuits. If the rear wheel locks, it releases the rear brake for a little while. If the front wheel locks, it releases the front brake for a little while.

If the rear wheel locks (as it surely must when doing a stoppie), does the ABS release the front brake as well?

I will say that I think I might perhaps be able to brake harder under test conditions and with a bit of practice than ABS will allow. I think this is more likely to be the case on a bike than in my car, but who knows. There have been some occasions where my bike's ABS has kicked in with what feels like that major lurch forward, and I'm confident that without it, I'd have stopped more quickly and just as safely. But in a one-off emergency situation, where I don't know about the road surface, manhole covers, diesel, gravel, etc I know the ABS system is better than I am.

I recall reading of a load of sceptical journos and ex-racers proving that even on a very slippy wet surface (skid pan) they could brake more quickly without engaging the ABS than by simply hauling on the brakes and letting the technology sort them out. They beat the ABS time and time again. The manufacturers (Yamaha FJ1200 was the bike) then sent them out on a bike without ABS and asked them to try again. They failed hopelessly. It seems that knowing ABS was there to save them if they got it wrong made them so much more confident. That sums up my own feelings entirely!

We all take ABS for granted in cars. Just because there are some isolated issues with the BMW system doesn't mean the principle should be scrapped, does it?

 

[nemezis]

We all take ABS for granted in cars.

Do you know the difference between ABS in cars and ABS in motorcycles?

Just because there are some isolated issues with the BMW system doesn't mean the principle should be scrapped, does it?

BMW ABS on motorcycles is prone to failure because of the design. If you like riding bikes where the ABS is reliable and working great just try HONDA. For example the CBF1000.

 

[MartinL]

If the rear wheel locks (as it surely must when doing a stoppie), does the ABS release the front brake as well?

I will say that I think I might perhaps be able to brake harder under test conditions and with a bit of practice than ABS will allow. I think this is more likely to be the case on a bike than in my car, but who knows.
We all take ABS for granted in cars. Just because there are some isolated issues with the BMW system doesn't mean the principle should be scrapped, does it?

It'll only lock if you've got the rear brake applied of course. For max. forward weight transfer just jam on the front with your weight over the bars. (Not a recommended technique, I'm just talking about stoppies!) I think the stunt guys deliberately leave the back wheel rotating to generate some centrifugal force induced stability. And no, the rear wheel locking won't release the front brake.

I don't think there is any doubt that it is possible to brake harder and therefore potentially stop in a shorter distance without ABS. The issue is whether you can prevent wheel locking in low grip situations and thus maintain control.

You might not find the same possibility in your car. If it's a top specced model it will likely have EBD and brake assist. EBD prevents wheel lock by relieving the pressure to that corner but also diverts pressure to the corners where there is more grip. Brake assist senses brake pressure and decelaration rate and "takes over" when it decides you are emergency braking and applies maximum braking force. This is particulary helpful to ladies and those of slighter build / strength. (I also seem to remember Mercedes having a nightmare time when they intoduced the system as it tended to kick in even in normal braking situation!) Only a matter of time before something similar appears on bikes, can't wait for Nemezis' response when it does.....

 

[cookie]

It'll only lock if you've got the rear brake applied of course.

for some while now, on bmws, the rear brake is activated when applying the front.

 

[MartinL]

for some while now, on bmws, the rear brake is activated when applying the front.

Yes I know, sorry if I over simplified things. The point I was making was that the system might help you stop "flatter" but cannot defeat the laws of physics and prevent forward weight transfer under braking. I was using the "stoppies" thing as an extreme example.

Pressure for the rear when applied by the front brake lever is generated and applied by the system not by a direct link from the front master cylinder. If you don't believe me put the bike on it's centre stand and pull on the front brake - you can still rotate the rear wheel freely (even with the ignition on). If you press the rear pedal then you get "direct" rear braking.

When riding, if you brake with the front the Integral system generates and applies pressure to the rear brake also. If you brake hard enough to to start lifting the rear the system will reduce the pressure to the rear to stop the wheel locking. I'm not sure if there would be enough inertia left in the wheel to keep it rotating once it's airborne.

Anyone got any (integral ABS equipped) silly stoppie videos? (Purely in the name of research of course).

 

[Wizard]

You are right.

But I'm pissed about all these guys whining about their ABS brake failures. I can't hear that no more. I can't take it no more. The should buy ABS but then be quiet.

Now you know how we feel

 

[nemezis]

I don't think there is any doubt that it is possible to brake harder and therefore potentially stop in a shorter distance without ABS. The issue is whether you can prevent wheel locking in low grip situations and thus maintain control.

Now I really do think that I am a genius. I don't need "to prevent wheel locking in low grip situations and thus maintain control", just because I maintain control even the wheel lock.

Is there anybody else that can not only buy a bike but also ride it without electronic gimmics that are prone to failure?