R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!

[patzx12]

I have crashed a non ABS 1200GS. On a wet track day. I gave it loads of front brake at 70ish ( bad techneque should have used more rear ).
The bike went down before i could think. Its the achilies heel of motorcycle design if you lock the front you are 99% sure of crashing. Only the gilera fuoco 3 wheeled scooter has addressed this issue, check out the youtube clip. This could be the way of the future to make motorcycles safer.
I was riding my ABS GSA in the wet on saturday morning, in the afternoon I took out my non ABS GS grabbed a big handful of front brake. I had to cop myself on and remind myself I was on a non ABS bike.
I think once you are used to an ABS bike you will not want to go back to Non
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[nemezis]

I think once you are used to an ABS bike you will not want to go back to Non

That is wrong. I was used to an ABS bike. After I recognized that the ABS was flawed and prone to failure, I wanted to go back to Non. And that's what I did.

But again I do think that I am a genius. I can handle a bike without ABS in any situation. Situations where others need ABS. What happend to riding skills?

 

[BBB61]

But again I do think that I am a genius.

You are the only one who thinks that then I saw one of your appraisals from work the other day and your boss stated that he felt you had delusions of adequacy.

 

[MartinL]

But again I do think that I am a genius. I can handle a bike without ABS in any situation. Situations where others need ABS. What happend to riding skills?

I'm sure you're being tongue in cheek but have you heard the expression "Pride comes before a fall"?....

I doubt very much that most people here need ABS. I ride in all weathers and on some dirty roads and almost never have the ABS system activate during my riding which means even a duffer like me must be excercising enough skill to prevent wheel lock up.

The difference is I'm not deluding myself that I'm infallible.

I can think of three occassions (all in my mis-spent yoof) over 26 years of riding when I have come to grief loosing the front.

1, Haring across a greasy carpark on a Fizzy and grabbing a handful of brake. Front locked, down we went.

2, Braking into a wet wet roundabout on an RD400. Hit diesel. Front locked, down we went.

3, Z650, tootling along in nose to tail traffic on a sunny day leching at two girls on the pavement, didn't notice the traffic stop. Big handful of brake, squeally tyres, bike out of shape, didn't get foot down quick enough to prevent untidy heap not impressing the girls...

All caused by the inexperience (maybe not the diesel but I was overtaking the traffic going in) all would have been prevented by ABS technology. Fortunately I was young and daft enough to bounce and get back on. I guess that's how we gain our experience and skills. Others have not been so lucky. Even with those hard lessons learned and twenty odd years of crash free riding behind me I'm stiill happy to accept I could be caught out.

 

[nemezis]

All caused by the inexperience ... all would have been prevented by ABS technology.

My personal experience and view is different.

I experienced at least three dangerous situations because I was riding a BMW motorcycle that was equipped with ABS. The ABS (flawed and prone to failure) caused emergency-situations.

I can handle situations with regular brakes where others obviously need a working ABS. Even locking brakes on slippy surface. Been there, done that.

 

[BBB61]

My personal experience and view is different.

I experienced at least three dangerous situations because I was riding a BMW motorcycle that was equipped with ABS. The ABS (flawed and prone to failure) caused emergency-situations.

I can handle situations with regular brakes where others obviously need a working ABS. Even locking brakes on slippy surface. Been there, done that.

So the situations were not down to a poor level of forward observation and an inability to anticipate what other road users were doing then? No, it couldn't be, it had to be the fault of the flawed BMW brakes

 

[nemezis]

, it had to be the fault of the flawed BMW brakes

Okay. There seems to be need of clarification:

I call the concept of 'residual brakes' a flawed design. This flaw is unique in motorcycle history, only BMW motorcycles show this flaw. In my case a defect hydraulic pump caused the effect of 'residual brakes' in the front circuit (but several reason can cause 'residual brakes'). That means 75% loss of braking efficiency. Again, this design flaw is unique all over the world and in my case 75% loss of braking efficiency caused an emergency. But as everybody knows BMW dropped the flawed system from FTE automotive, they did shut down their 2-wheel division some month ago...

I even call the concept of 'steel lines' on the new ABS flawed. First they equipped the bikes with a defect design of steel lines, which caused brake failures and the effect of about 75% loss of braking efficiency. And then they changed the design and even then brake failures occured! As I mentioned earlier, KTM goes the right way by fitting flexible lines on the KTM LC 8 Adventure N.

Some guys need ABS, we all know that. They need every help they can get. But my personal choice then would be a HONDA CBF1000 when it comes to ABS.

 

[nemezis]

KTM:

BMW:

You will find two pictures of the newly designed steel lines in this article from April 2008. But I mentioned the problem at least in November 2007 here at UKGSR. I can't prove it that I mentioned it in June 2007 when I first noticed the brake failures and the investigations by the German authorities were initiated (but they are not allowed to recall!).

 

[BBB61]

Okay. There seems to be need of clarification:

I call the concept of 'residual brakes' a flawed design. This flaw is unique in motorcycle history, only BMW motorcycles show this flaw. In my case a defect hydraulic pump caused the effect of 'residual brakes' in the front circuit (but several reason can cause 'residual brakes'). That means 75% loss of braking efficiency. Again, this design flaw is unique all over the world and in my case 75% loss of braking efficiency caused an emergency. But as everybody knows BMW dropped the flawed system from FTE automotive, they did shut down their 2-wheel division some month ago...

In post 57 of this thread you said you didn't have any problems with your BMW brakes. Now you are saying you had a problem with the hydraulic pump. Any chance that you could make up your mind for us which version is correct?

 

[nemezis]

In post 57 of this thread you said you didn't have any problems with your BMW brakes. Now you are saying you had a problem with the hydraulic pump. Any chance that you could make up your mind for us which version is correct?

The hydraulic pump (for each circuit one pump) is part of the complex BRAKE PRESSURE MODULATOR. A defect of the hydraulic pump causes 'residual brakes'. The concept of 'residual brakes' is not a brake failure according to BMW officials. It is a perfect fallback and works as BMW engineers and FTE engineers designed it. Therefore having 'residual brakes' is officially not a problem. As I said before I cannot deal with a loss of 75% of braking efficiency. Threre might be other guys that can deal with such an emergency, but at least I can't. AFAIK I was lucky because other guys couldn't handle such a loss of braking efficiency, too. They crashed.

Anyway this thread is aobut the brake failure of MartinL with the Continental Teves ABS and the steel lines "R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary! ". I don't think his brake failure was necessary. First, I informed here at UKGSR about the subject of brake failures at least in November 2007 (I hope I did already in June 2007, but I cannot prove that). I did inform at least in April 2008 about the campain from BMW (which is not a recall!).

MartinL stated that his brake failure happend on 13th of August 2008: "No warning just sudden lever back to the bars and very low brake effort."

In November 2007 the BMW press officer stated that owners have to watch and observe the braking fluid level at the handlebar during ride. That correspondes to the other press officer that stated in the past the owners always have to watch and observe the warning lights.

I have never heard any spokesman from HONDA saying such BS when it comes to safety systems (ABS) and brakes.

 

[cookie]

at least the honda forum's safe then

 

[BBB61]

edited out the usual avoiding the question that Dr ABS brake/Nemizis is so good at.

Thank goodness I wasn't holding my breath expecting you to answer a straight question

 

[nemezis]

Had brake failure yesterday on the way home from work. No warning just sudden lever back to the bars and very low brake effort. ...,found brake fluid leaking down from under the tank.

NHTSA/ODI (May 2008):

RCDNN-08V254-7881.pdf

 

[casperghst42]

Now I really do think that I am a genius. I don't need "to prevent wheel locking in low grip situations and thus maintain control", just because I maintain control even the wheel lock.

Is there anybody else that can not only buy a bike but also ride it without electronic gimmics that are prone to failure?

Sure, everyone can, but as my driving instructor said at some point; "you never really need ABS, until that day when you really do - and then it's too late".

The same saying goes, there are two kind of people; "the ones who have dropped it, and the ones who will" (I belong to the last ones).

You can also find a comment which makes you look good, but it does not mean that you're right.....

Casper

 

[nemezis]

It does not mean that I am right? Would you mind to explain that phrase?

1. My personal view is that safety systems on motorcycles should be safe. And ABS on motorcycles is a safety system.

2. My personal view is that flawed safety systems are not safe. Flaws with ABS are a) the concept of 'residual brakes' and b) the concept of 'steel lines'.

3. My personal view is that I do not use flawed safety systems that are not safe. I guess it would make me look ridiculous if I would do so.

4. There must be need for others to use flawed safety systems. Possibly their riding skills are that bad that the tradeoff injuries and crashes caused by flawed safety systems (such as ABS) is okay for them (net benefit).

 

[Deleted account 210609001]

It does I guess it would make me look ridiculous if I would do so.

Oh, I don't think you need worry about looking ridiculous. Or any more ridiculous, at any rate.

 

[nemezis]

Oh, I don't think you need worry about looking ridiculous. Or any more ridiculous, at any rate.

Ridiculous are BMW owners that start alarmist threads:

"R1200GS Brake Failure - Scary!"

Because there are only quality problems with ABS brakes. Both FTE automotive (power assisted) and Continental Teves. And in addition these quality problems only with ABS brakes are known for years.

It's one thing to buy a GS. But it's another thing to buy ABS. Flawed, unreliable and scary at the same time.

 

[BBB61]

Ridiculous are ex BMW owners that start alarmist threads and wage a 4 year campaign on the internet against BMW.

Fixed it for you

 

[baz3057]

Brake Pipe Failure

I had the same thing happen to me in Germany last week

 

[nemezis]

I had the same thing happen to me in Germany last week

It is not a safety issue. According to the law in the European Union (EU). A cut of 75% of braking efficiency does not create an emergency according to BMW and according to the German authorities.

Why bother?