rechip bmw 1150's

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger,

How long does this regression via the lambda take after a say a chip change/remap...are we talking 10's of miles or 1000's miles?

I am assuming the more time you spend on closed loop the quicker the regression. Thus riding style and route will have an affect.

The way that Mixture Adaptation works is that there is a matrix of cells in the Closed Loop area (shown earlier in the thread). Each time you ride at a steady RPM/TPS (although it doesn't need to be perfectly steady, just not changing rapidly) the Closed Loop algorithm in the Motronic updates a Lambda Control Factor (or Short Term Trim as it is commonly known). The LCFs are applied to fueling in the Closed Loop area.

The Long Term Trims are a reduced set of factors that are calculated from the LCFs. They are applied to the entire fuel table whether Open or Closed Loop. For example there is a Long Term scale factor that is the average of most of the LCFs. So for instance if 20 LCFs said add 5%, 20 more said to add 6% and a final 20 said add 7%, the average would be 6%. There are also Long Term Trims for small throttle angles to correct for air flow and injection turn on time.

The best way to get the Long Term Trims to develop quickly is to ride in as many gears and as steadily as practical, uphill and downhill. You're usually in good shape after a few hundred miles but I have received reports of subtle improvements for much longer than that.

I can get the Long Term Trims for idle to converge in about a half hour, even for a shift of 15% by riding with a certain style.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

There is a confuse to a cold start maps and to warm-standard maps.
The Function of ECU is this one.
When start the bike for 1 min there is only a open loop (lambda ignored).
After 1 min the function is in close loop but the AFR is richer until the engine will be hot (lambda is not ingnored).

And after few miles when the engine is hot, the AFR is as the table in lambda maps in to the chip.

...

John, Hi, how is spring in Greece. I hope better than here where my bike was stored for 4 months waiting for the snow to clear.

Your description of how cold start enrichment occurs is not correct. I am 100% sure from extensive measurements that:

a) There are NO lambda maps as you have suggested many times.
b) That the cold start sequence is:

1) Starting Enrichment (Open Loop)
2) After Start Enrichment (Open Loop)
3) Warm Up Enrichment (Open Loop)

After the bike hits 50-60 degrees centigrade, the Motronic commands Closed Loop and all Start and Warm Up enrichments are over.

In the measured chart below, from an actual warming up R1150, you can see the top curve for AFR. It goes closed loop at about point 306, which was about 3 minutes. You can also see the curve for oil temperature which was around 120F.

 

[JohnGS1100]

Hi Roger. I hope the sun will come faster to your place. Here in Greece we have spring there is no snow and we ride the bikes every days .

You have some good ideas and you rigth on many ideas but you must understand that the main difference at stock-mod chip is on the main injection maps.

The stage 4 or 5 chip gives 5% more fuel so you can use this chip by free air filter and de-cat system exhaust. If you use the stock chip by this hardware mods the AFR is still and too lean. The lambda maps does no matter. So the bikes works bad.
By the mod chip the additional fuel (by the new values at injection maps) can gives again the correct AFR. Maybe in a close loop is not too richer (14,2) and is just little richer (<1) and the AFR is still again close to "1" but believe me is richer than stock (always <1) so can work much better not only by hardware mods but works better and on a stock bike.

The improvement is appears on the road and is very very nice. driveability torque under 1.900 rpms (you really can drive now the bike by a gear up), much more torque at middle revs of rpms (about +1 Kgr at 2.900-6.500) and more power at high rpms (plus 5 - 8 Hp at 7.100) and longer final speed. The consumption is the same or better. That is because the AFR is in to a correct area.

Also as i said, the improvements is not only on the fuel, but is and on the timing advance. It is variable faster at all revs of rpms. I make on a dyno exaclty the best values on all maps variable each revs of rpms (low, middle and high) for the much better torque and power by using 95 or higher octane petrols.

Take a look at this table, the torque is up to 10 Kgr, flat and huge at wide revs of rpms to a R1150GS.
That is impossible to do without reprogramming the maps in to the chip!!

I will make some test - data logging to see what is exactly and how richer is the AFR at close loop by stock and mod chip and by stock and free air filter and i will back again.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

That is essentially the same WOT torque I measure on my engine with no timing adjustment but with a richer WOT mixture by lambda shifting. See chart below.

Adding richness to WOT through chip programming is easy. Richening low and mid throttle on a closed loop bike can ONLY be done by lambda shifting. You can't change closed loop afr by chip reprogramming, only by changing the O2 sensor. It is just the way that closed loop ecus are designed. What many riders want is improved part throttle response. Lambda shifting with AF-xied or LC-2 does a much better job because it can richen the mixture in that closed loop area.

Also, on your dyno plot the HP calculation is wrong. The torque at 6337 rpm is 10 kg-m. That converts to 87 HP, not 91.

 

[Old Codger]

Hi OC, I try to work collegially with all the fueling enhancement providers since my role is testing and reports, which is a hobby for me. Although I did spec the AF-XIED for BMW for Nightrider, it's their product, not mine. Same goes for the Innovate Motorsports LC-2, on that I just tested and reported.

In the case of chips, I have opened my Motronic and replaced the chip. Then ridden and taken GS-911 and LC-1 data. The chip clearly added fuel initially, quite a lot in fact. However, the extra fuel was quickly countered by the Motronic's Closed Loop mixture adaptation. I have data and graphs which I hope to have time to post later this spring.

I try to keep my opinions out of this effort and just report the measurements and tests.

Roger are you a politician?
My question was have you tried and tested any of John,s chips ? And you waffle .Simples !

 

[Comfy Old Boots]

It's a fair question.

Roger?

If you haven't there is a taste of sour grapes about your replies on the subject.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger are you a politician?
My question was have you tried and tested any of John,s chips ? And you waffle .Simples !

John is working hard on his chips but has a lot of mis-information. I didn't waffle, I just declined to say it was his chip.

I answered the way I did because any altered chip which leaves the O2 sensor attached ends up with its fueling returned to stock by the Motronic's (or BMSK's) Mixture adaptation function.

PM sent to you.

It's a fair question.

Roger?

If you haven't there is a taste of sour grapes about your replies on the subject.

Sour grapes, not sure I see it but if you do, what can I say. Do I write about frustration badly, probably. This post by John (about timed lambda maps during the cold start sequence, here) has several wrong descriptions of how the Motronic works. When I pointed them out he wrote about something else, misinformed. Maybe I should just respond with WTF man, you buggered that explanation, get your head out of your a$$.

Maybe I just need a better sense of humor.

 

[JohnGS1100]

Roger you made a test to a incorrect beta chip from R1150GS twin..
You sould make test exactly on a mod chip for R1150RT twin, that is you bike. It has huge difference.

As i said i m sure that there are not only one but 6 lambda maps for this model (twin spark), cause European emission standards Euro 3 and 4.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger you made a test to a incorrect beta chip from R1150GS twin..
You sould make test exactly on a mod chip for R1150RT twin, that is you bike. It has huge difference.

As i said i m sure that there are not only one but 6 lambda maps for this model (twin spark), cause European emission standards Euro 3 and 4.

Okay everyone, it is John's chip that I tested.

John,
I tested the chip you sent me. After I tested it and demonstrated that it didn't do what you said, you told me it was the wrong chip. The chip added a lot of Open Loop fuel as you said it would. Closed Loop quickly negated it just as I predicted. There are no lambda maps (for the purpose of shifting closed loop afr) and the Motronic only has the capability to run closed loop at the setting of the O2 sensor.

Please if you can, show us any document on the Motronic which describes running closed loop other than at the setting of the O2 sensor.

As I've told you for a couple years you need to get a GS-911 and also install an LC-2 and Wideband sensor into a second bung. Then you will see what's happening. If you demonstrated it doing what you claimed, then I'd try another. Until then the ball is in your court.

 

[fatnfast]

Wow, am I the only one who has read through pages and pages of this (including 90 odd pages on ADV Rider), but is still not clear on what does what?

Can you confirm with a simple, if possible, yes or no the following Roger?

1. The addition of any chip is pointless as the Motronic will eventually return the fueling to its original state.

2. The addition of a chip will only add fuel when accelerating. It will do nothing on a constant throttle. This will continue forever.

3. The use of a booster type resistor with additional external thermistor/whatever its called will also only add fuel when accelerating and again this will be eventually negated as the Motronic will eventually return fueling to its original state.

4. A booster plug type device will add fuel when accelerating and continue to do so for ever.

5. The bmw cat code plug does nothing as the Motronic will negate any changes eventually.

You and John have obviously done a heap of work on this judging by the post counts and graphs, but I would imagine that most (or maybe just myself) people just want a simple answer as to what does work and what does not.


I appreciate open/closed loop etc and the change of state dependant on temperature, but ultimately I would want a device that does was its supposed to do once the engine is warm for ever.

many thanks

 

[Roger 04 RT]

The answers below are for the R1150 with a connected, functioning O2 sensor. For the R1100 the answers are different if your bike doesn't have an O2 sensor.

Wow, am I the only one who has read through pages and pages of this (including 90 odd pages on ADV Rider), but is still not clear on what does what?

You're probably not the only one who's unclear. The Motronic's internal operation hasn't been well explained by Bosch except in very technical terms. As a result there is a lot of urban legend type information that has led to a lot of fueling enhancement products that don't do much or that disable key parts of the Motronic's function.

Can you confirm with a simple, if possible, yes or no the following Roger? I will try and boil the answers down. Some of your questions just don't have yes/no answers.

1. The addition of any chip is pointless as the Motronic will eventually return the fueling to its original state. True if you leave the O2 connected with some caveats.
--If you only change fueling above half throttle and above 6000 RPM the changes will stick.
--Any spark advance changes will stick BUT dwell must be adjusted. The chips I've tested don't adjust dwell and the dwell time gets very short.
--

2. The addition of a chip will only add fuel when accelerating. It will do nothing on a constant throttle. This will continue forever. Partly True below half throttle and below 6000 RPM.
--It won't add fuel when accelerating either, after a sufficient Mixture Adaptation period.
--Above half throttle or above 6000 RPM, fuel can be added.


3. The use of a booster type resistor with additional external thermistor/whatever its called will also only add fuel when accelerating and again this will be eventually negated as the Motronic will eventually return fueling to its original state. False, I own a Boosterplug (my first purchase after buying the bike) and can't measure any fuel added during steady state or during acceleration after a sufficient mixture adaptation period.
--The boosterplug is well made and accurately shifts temperature to the Motronic. I have kept mine for use in certain circumstances because it reduces the time it takes the Motronic to adapt to a richer O2 sensor.

4. A booster plug type device will add fuel when accelerating and continue to do so for ever. False, see answer above.

5. The bmw cat code plug does nothing as the Motronic will negate any changes eventually. The cat code plug won't change fueling, True. However the Cat Code plug has a number of important functions:
--The fuel table is matched to the Intake Tubes, Heads, Cams and Exhausts of each engine
--The spark advance and dwell are matched to Tubes, Heads, Cams and Exhausts
--The spark advance is match to Octane for some R1150 models, the GS in particular.

You and John have obviously done a heap of work on this judging by the post counts and graphs, but I would imagine that most (or maybe just myself) people just want a simple answer as to what does work and what does not. I've made three years worth of GS-911 data measurements and LC-1 AFR measurements on my R1150RT, several R1150GSs, an R1100RT with and without CAT, several R1200GSs (including the W), F800s, and the Husky TR650. I have good records on the results of the measurements. John, who I communicate with a lot, has really learned how to read and write the Motronic chips. I would really like to see him get some measuring equipment so he could get himself past a couple key misunderstandings on Mixture Adaptation.

--The very best you could do with an R1150 and Motronic would be to:
1) Shift Lambda by 4-10% depending on just how much fuel you were willing to burn for performance.
2) Then add a chip which fine-tuned fueling above 50% throtte, and in the Open Loop area for light loads that I highlighted in an earlier chart.
3) Then tweak spark timing for best performance.

Unfortunately, John remains convinced that he can do it all through the chip. Until I convince him otherwise, we won't get to the very best solution. So for now, the best you can do, and the results are usually quite impressive, is to shift lambda 6-8%.


I appreciate open/closed loop etc and the change of state dependant on temperature, but ultimately I would want a device that does was its supposed to do once the engine is warm for ever.

many thanks

 

[Flipfly]

Hopefully I will get a chance to concur with Rogers thesis.

I was very tempted with Johns chip solution, but Roger has some very common sense answers to the negatives of re chipping. Shifting lambda does seem to me a total solution as it should let the existing chip do it's thing whilst still adding fuel across the range.

The problem in the uk is the lack of access to the equipment to do lamda shift.

 

[fatnfast]

I agree Mr Flipfly, and many thanks Roger for the answers.

So this is what I need Roger for my 1150gs? Im going to order one, sod the expence and my bikes a keeper :http://sales.nightrider.com/AF-XIED-for-BMW-R1150_p_61.html

I take it I do not need to purchase an AFR display as you have kindly done the legwork for this device and I can play with the settings available?

Do you recommend an extention harness for the gs?

I take it I could retain my booster plug as mentioned in your reply.

It would be great to get a Roger/John all round solution

 

[~Stef~]

So let me get this right, if you fit one of Johns chips you get a initial improvment but according to Roger, over time, the motronic unit will revert back to stock values (who knew it was that clever)

So for one I dont understand how the motronic unit reprogrames the chip

But 'almost' everyone that has used Johns Chip report improved power/torque/throttle response and better mpg, Now over time the increase in performance will become the norm and you possibly would not notice the bike returning to stock, but you would notice the mpg dropping.

So has anyone here been using Johns chip for long enough to report on they're findings does the mpg return to stock ?

 

[~Stef~]

Ideally we need three dyno runs one stock, one after fitting Johns chip and one with Johns chip after 1000 miles.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

I agree Mr Flipfly, and many thanks Roger for the answers.

So this is what I need Roger for my 1150gs? Im going to order one, sod the expence and my bikes a keeper :http://sales.nightrider.com/AF-XIED-for-BMW-R1150_p_61.html

I take it I do not need to purchase an AFR display as you have kindly done the legwork for this device and I can play with the settings available?

Do you recommend an extention harness for the gs?

I take it I could retain my booster plug as mentioned in your reply.

It would be great to get a Roger/John all round solution

You don't need the extender cable. The cable it ships with will route from the O2 sensor connector, along the right frame. The unit itself will sit near the temperature sensor on the airbox.

What I would do when you get the AF-XIED, since you own the BoosterPlug, is the following:

Pull fuse 5 for 5-10 minutes to clear all current adaptives and then reinstall it.
Relearn the throttle.
Install the AF-XIED
Leave the BP installed and make sure the probe is in the intake airstream. When I use it I mount mine right at the inlet to the horn.
Set the AF-XIED on setting 8.

This will give the AF-XIED and Motronic a 6% headstart to learning the adaptive values.

Go ride. Done.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

So let me get this right, if you fit one of Johns chips you get a initial improvment but according to Roger, over time, the motronic unit will revert back to stock values (who knew it was that clever)

So for one I dont understand how the motronic unit reprogrames the chip

But 'almost' everyone that has used Johns Chip report improved power/torque/throttle response and better mpg, Now over time the increase in performance will become the norm and you possibly would not notice the bike returning to stock, but you would notice the mpg dropping.

So has anyone here been using Johns chip for long enough to report on they're findings does the mpg return to stock ?

The Motronic doesn't revert to stock values. Whatever is in the chip remains. What it does is learn a new set of Long Term Trims called adaptive values that it calculates and keeps in memory. Those values are lost if you disconnect the battery or pull fuse 5 for more than a few minutes.

Here is the recipe that the Motronic uses to learn and use Mixture Adaptive Values, the steps in Red are where the Adaptive Values are learned or used:

Each fueling calculation starts with the Base Map (not Open or Closed Loop) or Fuel Table, whatever you call it.
1. Read Base Map using TPS angle and RPM.
2. Interpolate in between values. In other words if your RPM or TPS is halfway between cells in the table (likely) calculate an amount of fuel that is halfway between the two cells.
2a. If engine is cold, read Oil Temperature. Adjust up to 15-20% based on temperature and time since start.
3. Read Air Temp. Adjust slightly based on temperature, from a table.
4. Read Baro Pressure. Adjust slightly based on pressure, from a table.
5. Read Battery Voltage. Adjust slightly based on voltage, from a table.
6. Read Long Term Trim (from a previously calculated value). Adjust fueling. Adjustment may be up to about 20%!

If Closed Loop isn't possible. FIRE FUEL INJECTOR based on above calculation.

If Closed Loop is possible.
7. Read O2 sensor. Update Short Term Fuel Trim. If Short Term Fuel Trim is significant or has been stable, adjust LONG TERM FUEL TRIM.
8. Adjust fueling based on Short Term Fuel Trim.
9. FIRE FUEL INJECTOR based on above calculation.​

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Ideally we need three dyno runs one stock, one after fitting Johns chip and one with Johns chip after 1000 miles.

Yes, but remember that the Dyno test is very limited in only uses about 6-8 cells in the fuel map at WOT. Not cells you experience very often during riding.

In the chart below (For R1100 but it will be about the same for R1150) of all cells from the Motronic (data courtesy of JohnGS) only those in red are measured by the inertial dyno. Even worse, due to the engine coasting (which causes Overrun Fuel Cutoff) before the dyno run starts it is often artificially lean so the first few cells are underfueled. As a result, the accurate stresses are often only at 3700 RPM and above. (This problem can be solved by putting a resistive load at the rear wheel while it is on the dyno, so the engine and drivetrain is loaded before the pull.)

Lastly, almost all of your riding is done in the green cells, and sometimes into the white range.

 

[fatnfast]

You don't need the extender cable. The cable it ships with will route from the O2 sensor connector, along the right frame. The unit itself will sit near the temperature sensor on the airbox.

What I would do when you get the AF-XIED, since you own the BoosterPlug, is the following:

Pull fuse 5 for 5-10 minutes to clear all current adaptives and then reinstall it.
Relearn the throttle.
Install the AF-XIED
Leave the BP installed and make sure the probe is in the intake airstream. When I use it I mount mine right at the inlet to the horn.
Set the AF-XIED on setting 8.

This will give the AF-XIED and Motronic a 6% headstart to learning the adaptive values.

Go ride. Done.

Many thanks Roger. Final question. I already have the y-piece and remus can installed as well as the booster plug. Filter is stock. Any recommended adjustment required on the AF-XIED or am I good to go?

 

[luke scott]

This has become so technical that I've lost interest in making my 1150 run faster/smoother/better. Anyone else feel this ?