here you go then
Removal of Multicontroller a.k.a. Wonderwheel
- Thread starter fred_jb
- Start date
here you go then
fred_jb
Registered user
I'm looking forward to seeing your tests and possible final outcome Fred. Personally I don't have any issue with the wonder wheel and indicator 
but this will make an interesting read non the less. Good luck with the project. 
but this will make an interesting read non the less. Good luck with the project.
fred_jb
Registered user
Unfortunately having dismantled the wheel and identified that the outputs of two latching hall effect sensors (marked type 462) go direct to two of the pins on the connector, then it does look as if there is some further processing going on outside the wheel. Whether this is quadrature encoding is impossible to say, but if the two sensors are positioned out of phase with respect to the North/South transitions on the magnetic ring in the wheel, then it seems likely. I have only limited electronics knowledge, and I can't see any way that these outputs could be used directly to indicate a forward or reverse jog of the wheel, so it looks like I am not going to be able to replace these outputs with simple switches.
There are also two further active devices on the circuit board which look like transistors but have no ID on them, and I have not been able to trace out the connections sufficiently to work out what these do, but they seem to be connected to the power input so may be to do with polarity protection and/or voltage regulation. The sideways jogs are not detected by microswitches under rubber covers as I first thought, but look like they are simple interleaved printed track patterns, one of which goes to earth, and which get connected by a conductive rubber cover which is pressed down on them when the wheel is tilted, similar to some keyboards. These connect directly to two of the connector pins, so are simple switches which look like they will just pull an input down to 0V when pressed.
I have not yet linked the wheel up to the bike to confirm what gets put on the outputs when the wheel is powered up and operated, but want to work out a not too destructive way of accessing these when the wheel is connected, which is not looking that easy due to the limited space and weather sealing inside the wheel.
fred_jb
Registered user
I'm looking forward to seeing your tests and possible final outcome Fred. Personally I don't have any issue with the wonder wheel and indicator
Thanks Flaming T. As well as riding, I do enjoy bike related projects, especially when they help satisfy my perfectionist tendencies to make a bike perfect (for me), so that is the motivation for doing this. The problem as such is not all that serious, and evidently not a problem at all for many people, but to me it is an imperfection, and if I can improve it I will.
GS_or_bust
Registered user
Now we have (probably) established it is quadrature encoding, you could replace it with an off the shelf device such as those shown in this Farnell search
fred_jb
Registered user
Thanks for that - I will look into it. If one of these was compatible with the bike I would still need a separate switch to emulate the left and right jog action, though that is not necessarily a problem. The main concern is in case the wheel runs off 12V and the bike's circuitry expects a logic 1 to be 12V rather than 5V.
Fred
It never bothered me that the wheel obstructed my access to the indicator but it often bothered other road users.
Mainly as i like to surprise folk with a left turn
Mainly as i like to surprise folk with a left turn
fred_jb
Registered user
I don't think that would be possible as it seems that the inputs from the buttons and wheel are processed by the electronics module in the bike before being sent out to the satnav via its cradle.
What you could possibly do is use the 4 button cradle that is used on BMW bikes which don't have the option of the wheel. You would just need to provide that with a power connection, I don't think it needs any further integration with the bike, so should work on a KTM in the same way as a generic Garmin mount. The four buttons give you the same control over the satnav, albeit not so conveniently placed, as the wheel. I believe this works with the IV and V, but you would have to check for the VI. One drawback of this is that it does not have the integral lock that the cradle for wonderwheel equipped bikes has. Touratech do a locking adaptor for this 4 button cradle for BMW bikes, but I'm not sure if you would be able to adapt that to a KTM.
See here: https://www.bmw-motorrad-bohling.com/uk/bmw-four-button-cradle-mount.html
I love this thread Fred.
I'm so electronically and mechanically inept (and lazy too) that if the wonder wheel bugged me that much, I'd change the bike.
What do you do - re-do BMW's job for them! What's next after the wheel?
I'm so electronically and mechanically inept (and lazy too) that if the wonder wheel bugged me that much, I'd change the bike.
What do you do - re-do BMW's job for them! What's next after the wheel?
fred_jb
Registered user
I love this thread Fred.
I'm so electronically and mechanically inept (and lazy too) that if the wonder wheel bugged me that much, I'd change the bike.
What do you do - re-do BMW's job for them! What's next after the wheel?
Haha - changing the bike was not an option. My other half took some persuading to buy it in the first place! After five previous bikes in the last five years this is supposed to be my forever bike!
Anyway, removing the wheel was fairly easy, it's replacing its function in a different location which is proving more of a challenge.
I love this thread Fred.
I'm so electronically and mechanically inept (and lazy too) that if the wonder wheel bugged me that much, I'd change the bike.
What do you do - re-do BMW's job for them! What's next after the wheel?
Unlucky - my wife doesn't pay that much attention to my bikes. Mind you, even she noticed when I swapped the RT for a GS!
fred_jb
Registered user
OK - I have now hooked up a couple of multimeters to the wheel rotation outputs and have confirmed that it is a 90 degree out of phase switched output, with a detent on the wheel every 90 degrees. Unfortunately the output is 12V. This would complicate using a 5V encoder as I would need a 5V supply and probably something like a couple of optocouplers to translate the outputs to the 12V pulses expected by the bike. I am also a little confused by the terminology on the specs of alternative encoders when looking for a replacement. The specs refer to the number of detents versus the number of pulses but don't define a pulse. The BMW wheel outputs three complete positive pulses per rotation but the detent means the two waveforms are effectively sampled 4 times per cycle and 12 times per rotation. I'm not sure how that would correspond to alternative encoders so any input would be welcome.
I have also looked at fitting the existing wheel to the right of the switch cluster. Space is not too much of a problem as the mirror and clutch assembly can be moved to the right a little if required. Also the cables coming out of the switch cluster intrude into that gap, but could be clipped back out of the way. There are two remaining obstacles to doing this. The first is how to fix the wheel in position which I can see would not be too difficult. The other more difficult issue is the way the switches for the sideways tilt operate. One of them is activated by a prong on the inner collar, but instead of having a matching prong on the other side of the collar for the other switch, it is part of the add-on plastic moulding which screws onto the grip through the collar and holds the connector in position so that it engages with the socket inside the switch cluster. I think this must be because it would not be possible to insert the collar into position if it carried both prongs. Since I would have to remove this moulding to re-position the wheel I would have to find another way to engage with the second sideways tilt switch, or I could possibly retain the moulding but just cut it down to minimal height.
Fred
I don't think that would be possible as it seems that the inputs from the buttons and wheel are processed by the electronics module in the bike before being sent out to the satnav via its cradle.
What you could possibly do is use the 4 button cradle that is used on BMW bikes which don't have the option of the wheel. You would just need to provide that with a power connection, I don't think it needs any further integration with the bike, so should work on a KTM in the same way as a generic Garmin mount. The four buttons give you the same control over the satnav, albeit not so conveniently placed, as the wheel. I believe this works with the IV and V, but you would have to check for the VI. One drawback of this is that it does not have the integral lock that the cradle for wonderwheel equipped bikes has. Touratech do a locking adaptor for this 4 button cradle for BMW bikes, but I'm not sure if you would be able to adapt that to a KTM.
See here: https://www.bmw-motorrad-bohling.com/uk/bmw-four-button-cradle-mount.html
I did consider one of those, but it was a lot more expensive than the Garmin mount I've got, for not a lot more useful features.
Oh the temptation to "fix" ......
Nofuck tiger will be along to do the dirty work
Controller is on a Linbus system not Canbus
Canbus sends data to every module on the bus, whether it needs the data or not.
Each module is passive/ active -
eg. Your taillamp blows a filament - the ZFE sees the voltage drop and does its voltage magic on the other filament and sends a rear blown lamp message round the Canbus - Every module in the bus sees the message, looks to see whether it has a flag for this message.
If no, it retransmits the message back onto the Canbus - job done
If yes, it reads the data, displays the warning and sends the lamp failure warning to every
module on the bus. A clever system, but each module on the bus needs to be a reciever / transmitter
Linbus is different in that the message it sends are to the specific modules.
So again we have a blown rear bulb.
ZFE sees the blown bulb, increases the voltage, and sends the signal to the Kombi -
(the kombi is the only module that needs to know)
Kombi sees the signal and displays the blown bulb symbol .
The other modules are not aware of any other problems.
The bus becomes simpler as it only needs recievers in the modules, as centralised electronics
do the reciever transmitter bits.
From what Fred has described, the rotary device is an opto counter-
it counts pulses of light passing over it, converts the light to a voltage and sends a high low voltage
pulse down the wires.
This is then used to determine the direction of rotation.
eg high low high low high low = turn clockwise - Low high low high low high = turn anti clockwise
As its linbus - The wires run to the device doing the coding decoding bit, not vice versa
Canbus sends data to every module on the bus, whether it needs the data or not.
Each module is passive/ active -
eg. Your taillamp blows a filament - the ZFE sees the voltage drop and does its voltage magic on the other filament and sends a rear blown lamp message round the Canbus - Every module in the bus sees the message, looks to see whether it has a flag for this message.
If no, it retransmits the message back onto the Canbus - job done
If yes, it reads the data, displays the warning and sends the lamp failure warning to every
module on the bus. A clever system, but each module on the bus needs to be a reciever / transmitter
Linbus is different in that the message it sends are to the specific modules.
So again we have a blown rear bulb.
ZFE sees the blown bulb, increases the voltage, and sends the signal to the Kombi -
(the kombi is the only module that needs to know)
Kombi sees the signal and displays the blown bulb symbol .
The other modules are not aware of any other problems.
The bus becomes simpler as it only needs recievers in the modules, as centralised electronics
do the reciever transmitter bits.
From what Fred has described, the rotary device is an opto counter-
it counts pulses of light passing over it, converts the light to a voltage and sends a high low voltage
pulse down the wires.
This is then used to determine the direction of rotation.
eg high low high low high low = turn clockwise - Low high low high low high = turn anti clockwise
As its linbus - The wires run to the device doing the coding decoding bit, not vice versa
fred_jb
Registered user
Controller is on a Linbus system not Canbus
Canbus sends data to every module on the bus, whether it needs the data or not.
Each module is passive/ active -
From what Fred has described, the rotary device is an opto counter-
it counts pulses of light passing over it, converts the light to a voltage and sends a high low voltage
pulse down the wires.
This is then used to determine the direction of rotation.
eg high low high low high low = turn clockwise - Low high low high low high = turn anti clockwise
As its linbus - The wires run to the device doing the coding decoding bit, not vice versa
Yes I'm sure you are right that the wheel is not a CANBUS device because its outputs are not in the form of a serial bus, but are individual connections for the two switches (left and right tilt) and the two movement detectors (forward and backward rotation), plus power and earth. Incidentally, these detectors are not optical but magnetic. There are two Hall sensors in the wheel which sense alternating North and South magnetic poles on a small magnetic reluctor ring built into the rotating part of the wheel, and these provide a quadrature output (two signals 90 degrees out of phase) which can be processed to detect direction of movement.
Because the wheel plugs into the left switch cluster, and the cluster has only has three wires connecting it into the bike's ZF electronics module (apart from the separate pair of wires to the heated grip), then I think some processing and encoding must happen in the switch cluster. This would be necessary to allow both the wheel and the many switches in the left switch cluster to communicate with the bike over only three wires.
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