Runing in my new 2008 GSA

  • Thread starter Thread starter ac92413
  • Start date Start date
There is a different requirement for a race engine and a road engine.

I have built a £12,000 race engine for my car and run it in on the dyno as the ignition and fuelling system was being programmed.

The reason is - a race engine is usually totally rebuilt every 5000 miles (max). However it costs you near to £10,000 to rebuild.

A road engine is expected to last much longer - so I run mine in 'as the book says' even though I will probably sell it befor it reaches 10,000 miles.

karl
 
People seem to see a large drop in oil consumption on a properly runin engine at between 10 and 13k. Mine stopped using oil at almost exactly 12k. It was spooky as it just seemed to stop using oil almost overnight.

So running it in hard may stop oil consumption straight away but who knows what other damage is done and when it will manifest itself.
 
The makers of flat, horizontally opposed air-cooled aero engines such as Lycoming and Continental insist that they are used at a minimum of 80 per cent power during their first 20 hours (-ish, depending on model). Effectively they are saying: Get them warmed up, then run them hard.

This, as a qualified aero engineer will tell you, is because the piston rings need to be firmly bedded in on the cylinder walls which is achieved by keeping them under high pressure (exhaust and inlet strokes permitting).

Failure to do this results in the bores becoming glazed (like some of your eyes by now I expect :)) and if that happens compression and oil use is compromised. The only cure is to remove the barrels and use a glaze-busting tool, then start over again.

I've had four new BMs in the last nine years, I ran the first one in as per the manual and it was still drinking oil at 24,000 miles.

The other three were given the alternative treatment described on the US website. All were oil-tight after a few thousand miles. Can't speak for power gain/loss as you would need a dyno to tell.
 
I think the reason why BMW have such a 'soft' run in policy is because one man's 'give it a little' is another man's rev the snot out of it...

Some people (many people) have no sense of mechanical empathy, and can't tell if they are doing harm... these people bring broken bikes back in during the run in period...

I both kept it under 4 grand, and tried to torque it up a bit during my run-in and I still had a bike that used oil for the first 15000 km... it stopped just before my last Morocco trip though, and I hadn't done anything spectacular to it to cause that... I figure it was just time...

My next bike?... I'd do the same... run it a little harder than BMW's policy, but stay easy just the same...

Al...
 
I don't know how my ex-Vines demo 2006 GSA was run in, but up to 5K it consumed Oil like petrol ... then one day it just stopped using any oil at all.. don't know what that is all about!

My 2008 GSA has used half of its oil after 320 miles.
 
I have had some online corrspondence with folk who know something of metallurgy ... and the 'give it some revs' (for the seating of the piston rings) point of view seems to prevail.

Although I'd have thought BMW would have learnt the odd thing or two about metallurgy over the years, and also how they build their engines ...

I'm not a slavish follower of BMW by any means - I'm sure they'd tell us anything if it meant making more money from us. But for the life of me I can't see what they would have to gain by telling people to run their bikes in gradually if there was no reason for it.
 
I've run in 8 new BMW bikes since my first (R100CS) in 1984, and must admit to always having stuck to around 4000 revs. up to the first service. However there have been quite considerable variations in oil consumption between different bikes although all of them "settled down" by about 5000 miles. My first (04) 12GS needed about 250ml per 1000 miles after the 5K mark. HOWEVER my latest (July 07) 12GS has reached nearly 5000 miles and has as yet NOT NEEDED A SINGLE EXTRA DROP OF OIL. The day I took delivery, I rode to Calais where I stayed overnight and continued the following day to Ulm in Germany where I had already prebooked the first service for the day after that. I chose to use rural roads across France, sticking to the 4k limit, but constantly varying the engine speeds with constant gear-box use; sitting on a motorway slavishly at 4k revs in top gear only runs the tyres in.... On reaching the dealer in Ulm after 667 miles, the oil-level was still at the top of the viewing glass. The evening after the service, I rode to Landeck to start my alpine holiday and was up and down the Stelvio pass the day after that. The next 10 days were spent enjoying myself around the some of the best alpine biking roads in Italy, Germany, Austria and Switzerland before blasting home on the motorways. Only on the return journey (started at about 2300miles) did the oil level drop to about three-quarters level in the viewing glass, where it has stayed since. Incidently this sample is one of the smoothest boxers I have ridden, and felt it even when I first rode it away from the dealer.

This has led me to the following conclusions: regardless of running in technique, there are still greater variations in engine samples than one would expect from the "latest technology".
I believe that how you treat the engine for the first couple of thousand miles greatly influences its long term performance and reliabilty. Just sticking religiously to the rev limit is little use in itself as is the "ride it as if you had stolen it" school of running in if done without any feel or empathy. The considerable variations in revs AND engine loading riding up and down alpine roads was I believe a significant factor in giving me a nicely run-in example with virtually no oil consumption. What is interesting is that until I started the motorway run home I rarely needed to venture above 5-5.5k revs, keeping it in the "sweet spot" with plenty of gearbox use. Only after blasting across the german Autobahn at constant revs did it use a little oil. Since then I have ridden it across the entire rev rang without any oil consumption. Of course some of my conclusions could be b******s and I've just been blessed with a freak sample.....:D
 
i've a feeling that most running in guides from manufacturers are more legal than technical in nature.

What do you think would happen if they recommended you ride it hard (public roads mind you) and came up with speeding tickets, or you just plain came off the thing. Those who say 'tiptoe through the tulips with it, the book is the only way to run it in' are probably deluded or missing some of the information. THe other little thing is your new bike will come with potentially slippery tyres until you scrub them a bit. Once again - what do you think the ramifications of telling you to explore the redline would be? Hell, even the brake systems manufacturers tell you to run the things in hard! You think that because the engine gets run in gently, that the rest of the bike needs it as well? No well manufactured part needs time to gently run in before using it. Thermal cycling is a doozy - you think 120celcius makes a difference to parts with annealing temps hundreds of degrees higher? If it is going to break, it'll do it regardless of whether you used it gently to start with, or firmly to start with. With one method, you'll just find out about it sooner.

On the other hand, there appear to be good reasons for a firm hand in the first few hundred miles...

You pays your money, you takes your choice.
 
I don't know how my ex-Vines demo 2006 GSA was run in, but up to 5K it consumed Oil like petrol ... then one day it just stopped using any oil at all.. don't know what that is all about!

My 2008 GSA has used half of its oil after 320 miles.

I ran mine in 'hard' (short bursts of 5/6k) and it hasn't used a drop so far (odo 1750 miles) ...
 
running in properly is not just about how much oil the engine consumes.

oil is a cheap consumable, whereas the engine, transmission etc. are not. personally i can't see the point in beating the shit out of new engine components to save a couple of pints of oil.

i run my 1200 in more or less to the book. it uses no appreciable amount of oil anyway, maybe a litre in 12000 miles :nenau

i don't give a fat rats arse about an extra 2hp on a dyno either :rolleyes:
 
Well what about this then.

One for the nicey nicey, tip toe through the run in period, by the book boys. If "running in" was still such an important thing nowadays for engine components etc. then why have Manufacturers got it sooooo wrong. :nenau

Peugeot or Citroen have their first service/oil change at 20,000 miles, whether its a small frugal petrol or a manky great 2.0ltr 136 bhp HDi. (Others VAG? follow similar lines too) They have a lights and levels check at 4 weeks or 1,000 miles, but dont touch the oil or filter. If the machining and component quality was so agricultural as some make out, these cars should be on every corner waiting for the orange/yellow/green munkies to tow them into the dealers. Wonder how many Hire cars and Repmobiles are run in too? 0 :augie I know these are car engines, but the components and manufacturing principles are the same.
 
One for the nicey nicey, tip toe through the run in period, by the book boys. If "running in" was still such an important thing nowadays for engine components etc. then why have Manufacturers got it sooooo wrong. :nenau

Peugeot or Citroen have their first service/oil change at 20,000 miles, whether its a small frugal petrol or a manky great 2.0ltr 136 bhp HDi. (Others VAG? follow similar lines too) They have a lights and levels check at 4 weeks or 1,000 miles, but dont touch the oil or filter. If the machining and component quality was so agricultural as some make out, these cars should be on every corner waiting for the orange/yellow/green munkies to tow them into the dealers. Wonder how many Hire cars and Repmobiles are run in too? 0 :augie I know these are car engines, but the components and manufacturing principles are the same.

How many of them are air/oil cooled?
 
Car engines are totally different, particularly diesals. Customer demand is for minimal service intervals as most cage drivers do big miles. I personally don't think that doing 20k on a new engine before an oil change is a good idea. I bet some design engineer in citroen reckonned that as the warranty will run out long before problems from a badly run in engine will manifest themselves they had nothing to loose from deleting the post run in service (which costs the manus a fortune)

to me its a no brainer - anything brand new needs careful use until its proven to be ok. I have a deal of mechanical symapthy so thats the way I do it. I can't be arsed pursuing a warranty claim on a blown up engine so I'll do all I can to avoid blowing it up - if you are prepared to take the risk then on you go - this is why I'd be wary of buying asecond hand bike as you never know if the PO ran it in properly or allowed it to warm up before thrashing it.
 
One for the nicey nicey, tip toe through the run in period, by the book boys. If "running in" was still such an important thing nowadays for engine components etc. then why have Manufacturers got it sooooo wrong. :nenau

Peugeot or Citroen have their first service/oil change at 20,000 miles, whether its a small frugal petrol or a manky great 2.0ltr 136 bhp HDi. (Others VAG? follow similar lines too) They have a lights and levels check at 4 weeks or 1,000 miles, but dont touch the oil or filter. If the machining and component quality was so agricultural as some make out, these cars should be on every corner waiting for the orange/yellow/green munkies to tow them into the dealers. Wonder how many Hire cars and Repmobiles are run in too? 0 :augie I know these are car engines, but the components and manufacturing principles are the same.

Then why do most/all bike manufacturers have a first service AND oil change at 600miles.

karl
 
I can't be arsed pursuing a warranty claim on a blown up engine so I'll do all I can to avoid blowing it up -

There is plenty of empirical evidence that running in a bike hard doesn't lead to warranty claims. There seems to be absolutely no evidence that running it in gently leads to no problems down the road. If you are going to hole a piston or spina bearing shell because of poor lubrication, the problem will just take longer to manifest itself until you do finally give it a go - by which time it could be out of warranty and up to you to fix. It should be up to the manufacturer to rectify faults of their own making. BMW riders have often regarded the running in period as however long it takes to stop using oil - which has been 30,000miles in some cases - reckon you'd do that in a couple of years that the warranty runs?

And why is oil consumption regarded as a good thing? It exists because of a gap between two parts that shouldn't be there. How do you get rid of it? You make the parts work together - you can't do that unless they are under pressure. You don't see machinists taking .2mm cuts everytime because they are running in the tool. You need to load the tool to get it to cut. If it breaks, the tool was faulty! It doesn't automatically become the error of the operator.

Look at journal bearings instead. A piece of swarf in an oil gallery blocks flow. You ride the thing so gently that you never become aware of the starving bearing as it disintegrates over many thousands of miles. That same bearing will be there, wearing out as well, even if you run the bike hard - why should it fail at any less miles than the other case?

People aren't talking about a firm run in in terms of start it and race it from cold - merely loading the engine a bit instead of doing 30mph on the motorway because you aren't willing to make the thing work. It will always be one of those things that divides people, but the difference seems to lie in the reasoning behind why it is done and possibly a failure to acknowledge advances in manufacturing techniques, materials technology and design practices. Certainly the manufacturers who do engine starts in the factory don't baby the thing at all!

PO ran it in properly or allowed it to warm up before thrashing it.

this is interesting - you believe that running it in and warming it up before loading the engine are independant concepts? Do you also believe that throughout the world, the mechanic who puts your bike together is the gentlest rider the bike will ever see?
 
How do you warm up the engine?

I start the thing and ride ... :nenau

Are you suppose to start the thing and leave it running for a couple of minutes before riding??? :confused:

This is a serious question.

Also how do you best do mixed load on the engine when riding on regular roads? If you ride small roads, you are merely running constant at lower revs .. isn't that the same as riding on motorways?

I am really confused by the conflicting information on this thread. Is there not just a definitive SCIENTIFIC answer? It's a mechanical piece of equipment so there must be an absolute RIGHT and WRONG answer.
 
How do you warm up the engine?

I start the thing and ride ... :nenau

Are you suppose to start the thing and leave it running for a couple of minutes before riding??? :confused:

This is a serious question.

Also how do you best do mixed load on the engine when riding on regular roads? If you ride small roads, you are merely running constant at lower revs .. isn't that the same as riding on motorways?

I am really confused by the conflicting information on this thread. Is there not just a definitive SCIENTIFIC answer? It's a mechanical piece of equipment so there must be an absolute RIGHT and WRONG answer.

lots of people have shown that idling vehicles take longer to warm up than gently ridden ones. This should even be mentioned in your owners manual. And idling (and thus cold) engines produce more pollutants before the cats warm up and they may also be running richer than normal mixtures.

Mixed load - change gear a lot and do a bit of accelerating and engine braking - it is hard to do this on a flat motorway, at least while there is other traffic. If you have some hills in your area, go play - this is probably the best way to do it. The other is to do it on a dyno. Failing that, just use what you've got.

I noted above that there appears to be no evidence of gently ridden vehicles not breaking down later in life. There does however appear to be lots of empirical evidence that vehicles run in with a firm hand don't burn oil, produce more power (which is the same as better fuel economy when they aren't producing peak power). There is also some evidence that problems caused by combustion blowby are reduced (see the mototman stuff and google for others) with a firm first hundred miles - this includes contaminated oil and scored cylinders.

As I also noted, because of legal aspects, you probably won't ever see an owners manual say "ride the tits off it". What you do see though are honda manuals saying "Use the whole rev range but no full throttle starts for the first 1000km", which is effectively equivalent.

As a final note, look up info on how engines of all types are run during post manufacturing tests - especially ducati's - full throttle runs through all gears. And then, somehow, restricting the end user to 4000rpm for the first few thousand miles somehow makes a scientific difference to the long term life of the vehicle? Draw your own conclusions.

Air/oil cooled versus water cooled has nothing to do with this argument. You shouldn't be running any engine hard until it has reached operating temperature. It is also worth noting that your gearbox oil doesn't come up to temperature by idling either!
 
How do you warm up the engine?

I start the thing and ride ... :nenau

Are you suppose to start the thing and leave it running for a couple of minutes before riding??? :confused:

This is a serious question.

Also how do you best do mixed load on the engine when riding on regular roads? If you ride small roads, you are merely running constant at lower revs .. isn't that the same as riding on motorways?

I am really confused by the conflicting information on this thread. Is there not just a definitive SCIENTIFIC answer? It's a mechanical piece of equipment so there must be an absolute RIGHT and WRONG answer.

Just start the thing and ride it. Ride it moderately at first. That's what BMW advise, with the justification that if you let it "warm up" standing still, it'll take longer for the oil to get up to temperature, therefore a longer period without full protection.

I kept mostly under 4000 for the first 1000km and didn't find it a problem. You have nearly the maximum torque at 4000rpm, and can do 110km in top. It's not like you're being asked to run a 250cc I4 at 4000. I barely ever redline it even now, it's just not a bike that needs it. Call me Dr Slow if you will.

Varying the load is as easy as just shifting gears a lot as you go along, and short-shifting under 4000. Ride for a minute one gear too low, then one two high. It is a good chance to get used to the bike and how it feels, particularly coming from something other than a boxer.

The reason there is no clear answer is that every person posting has observed one or a handful of bikes and there's a lot more variation between individual bikes and riders than the influence of running-in procedure. You can have perfectly treated bikes that blow up, and abused ones that last for ever. Consider also that the running in period is only a couple of percent of the typical life.

Pages like the one above make a fuss about the piston rings bedding in or not, but there are plenty of other parts that have to settle in, both oil lubricated and otherwise, and with more important consequences than a bit more or less compression or oil use.

My GS, at 5500km, just needed a second top-up of oil, so about 150mL per 100km. It's more than previous Japanese I4 bikes. Maybe it will stop at 12000km as others say. But anyhow it's a trivial cost - $8 of oil compared to hundreds of dollars in petrol, $400 for a tyre, and more than that in depreciation of the bike.

Manufacturers have a good idea what works, having seen thousands of the things. This becomes a fine art for leased heavy equipment, where the manufacturer/lessor is responsible for service costs. The onboard computer tells the operator, or even dobs them in, if they're using too much/too little engine braking, and so on.

I'm not sure about the bikes but bmw cars at least are redlined at the factory in their final test. So, if you ignore the instructions they probably won't blow up. But if following them might help and is no burden why not do it?
 
Andy- give it time mate, your Triumphant has been run in? Don't compare your 12GSA that's done 350 odd miles with it.

Remember to go up hills change gear and vary your speed and throttle, easy on the brakes-use engine speed.

Then don't ride it like you stole it at 600 miles...gradually over hundreds of miles use more revs. I run mine in to 1200 miles and didn't really go for it until 4,500 - never needed a drop of oil... not like my 1150 GSA-that was like running a two stroke.

After 6,000 miles, change the exhaust system completely like a remus system that gets rid of the cat- new headers- revolution can.....then try saying you prefer your triumphant......Then come and play:bounce1
 


Back
Top Bottom