Torque steer?

[Larne]

I am a couple of weeks into ownership of my R1200 GS now. It's my first boxer, my previous bikes all having been parallel twins, and it's also by far the largest capacity bike I have ridden so what I am about to describe may just be a normal 'feature' of the bike but I thought I would ask.

If I drop the clutch out quickly, either accelerating or under braking, then the bike seems to 'squirm' momentarily. It's a hard sensation to describe, all I can really say is that it feels like for a moment the bike is going to do something unpleasant but it doesn't. Actually that's a bit of a generalisation because it did it once while cornering on a wet road and it caused the back end to step out ever so slightly which got the heart rate going.

The engineer in me thinks this is probably just the torque from a large capacity 'fore and aft' engine. For example if I rev the bike when stationary the whole thing leans to the right! My previous bikes all had transverse engines so I guess if there were any torque reactions they would be absorbed by the suspension.

I'm hoping some wise sort can lay my fears to rest and tell me this is perfectly normal. The bike is back at the dealer next week for its 600 mile first service so I can bring it up then but I don't want to look stupid if this is something they all do.

 

[JJH]

If I drop the clutch out quickly, either accelerating or under braking, then the bike seems to because it did it once while cornering on a wet road 'squirm' momentarily

why would you do it and while cornering? not recomended on any bike but the shaft has less play than a chain + you have 2 big high compression cilinders protesting at the action of the clutch lever. Smoothness on all controls. She will lock up the back wheel if you come down the gears too quick and dump the clutch not reckmonded on a wet road or while cornering. JJH

 

[Nutty]

Yeah, I've had the same, in the wet and in the dry. I tend to rev it through the gears when slowing down, and haven't had a problem since. It's slightly unnerving when the road is wet, and you forget to do it, as it will step out

I've also noticed that the whole bike rocks from side to side when you rev it at a standstill, but I guess that's all the power!

 

[swissrob]

Yeah, I've had the same, in the wet and in the dry. I tend to rev it through the gears when slowing down, and haven't had a problem since. It's slightly unnerving when the road is wet, and you forget to do it, as it will step out

I've also noticed that the whole bike rocks from side to side when you rev it at a standstill, but I guess that's all the power!

just the flywheel

 

[steviegasgas]

Hi, why do you "drop" the clutch?? The only time you ever need to drop it is if you are popping a wheelie, every other time should be feeding the clutch in so that wheel speed matches engine revs to make it as smooth a transition as possible. Going up the box apart from first can be clutchless, coming down the box should be smooth using the clutch. I feel somebody has to warn you that if you continue dropping the clutch, on a wet road, whilst cornering the only squirming to worry about is avoiding bed sores on yer arse during your recuperation!!!!

This will happen regardless of bike, twins, triples, singles,on wet roads the bike should be ridden as smooth as you can.

Hope this helps, and I really do not mean to cause any offence so hope none taken, cheers.

I am a couple of weeks into ownership of my R1200 GS now.

If I drop the clutch out quickly, either accelerating or under braking, then the bike seems to 'squirm' momentarily. It's a hard sensation to describe, all I can really say is that it feels like for a moment the bike is going to do something unpleasant but it doesn't. Actually that's a bit of a generalisation because it did it once while cornering on a wet road and it caused the back end to step out ever so slightly which got the heart rate going

I'm hoping some wise sort can lay my fears to rest and tell me this is perfectly normal. The bike is back at the dealer next week for its 600 mile first service so I can bring it up then but I don't want to look stupid if this is something they all do.

 

[mark71]

Can I have first dibs please

Can I have first dibs on whats left of your bike after you pick it up again, because if you do that with the clutch in the wet or dry for that matter you wont be around in one piece for long.

All joking apart and your opening yourself up for so much stick saying that you do that, clutching is all about smoothness and all the riders who know what there talking about Im sure will tell you a smooth rider is always a much faster rider and of course safer.

Anyway enjoy the bike as its fun and thats what its all about.

Mark.

 

[Larne]

In reply to the 'dropping the clutch' comments a couple of responses.

Firstly I'm only two weeks into the bike and the clutch is like an on/off switch compared with my 2-year-old F800 ST so it's taking me a while to get the hang of smooth transitions.

Secondly as I'm still under 600 miles I am supposed to be sticking to less than 5k RPM which means that when overtaking I need to short-shift pretty damn quick. That was where the cornering item came in, I wouldn't normally change on a bend but I needed to get past the cages. (There was plenty of visibility round the bend before anyone starts on that!) It wasn't something that would have been an issue on my F800 so I guess it's all part of learning the new bike.

It sounds from the above comments that this is fairly normal so I won't worry about it. And yes, I'm sure it will become less noticeable as the clutch beds in and I get more used to it. Being able to take the bike over 5k RPM will probably also help.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I used to have an R1100S Boxer Cup with no balancer shaft. If you revved that thing on it's side stand it would try to flip over

 

[Packer]

Engine 50% more capacity and probably that much extra (or more) rotating mass with tyres the same size as the 800.

You'll have a lot more engine inertia with only the same rubber patch to control it.

The 1150GS manual recommended clutchless upshifts which, with practice can be very smooth. I don't know about the 1200GS, I'm allergic to the concept of canbus

 

[snerkler]

Do you have traction control? It could be that kicking in if you drop the clutch too sharply accelerating. If not is it not just the rear wheel spinning? There's a lot of low down torque on the GS.
As for feeding the clutch out too quickly under braking, again this could be a rear wheel lock up because you've changed down too quickly. I did this once when I was riding fairly spirited and momentarily forgot it doesn't have a slipper clutch

 

[snerkler]

Firstly I'm only two weeks into the bike and the clutch is like an on/off switch compared with my 2-year-old F800 ST so it's taking me a while to get the hang of smooth transitions.

.

I agree the 'bite' region of the clutch is narrow compared to other bikes, and so initially it can seem like the clutch is either fully in or fully out, with no inbetween. You soon get used to this though and it becomes 2nd nature. Your gear changes will get smoother and smoother the more you ride.

 

[Engineer]

I am a couple of weeks into ownership of my R1200 GS now. It's my first boxer, my previous bikes all having been parallel twins, and it's also by far the largest capacity bike I have ridden so what I am about to describe may just be a normal 'feature' of the bike but I thought I would ask.

If I drop the clutch out quickly, either accelerating or under braking, then the bike seems to 'squirm' momentarily. It's a hard sensation to describe, all I can really say is that it feels like for a moment the bike is going to do something unpleasant but it doesn't. Actually that's a bit of a generalisation because it did it once while cornering on a wet road and it caused the back end to step out ever so slightly which got the heart rate going.

The engineer in me thinks this is probably just the torque from a large capacity 'fore and aft' engine. For example if I rev the bike when stationary the whole thing leans to the right! My previous bikes all had transverse engines so I guess if there were any torque reactions they would be absorbed by the suspension.

I'm hoping some wise sort can lay my fears to rest and tell me this is perfectly normal. The bike is back at the dealer next week for its 600 mile first service so I can bring it up then but I don't want to look stupid if this is something they all do.

Sounds to me as though you are on the point of braking traction - easily done on a 1200GS - just be a bit more gentle with the throttle and clutch when pulling away - how long have you been riding bikes?

 

[Engineer]

I agree the 'bite' region of the clutch is narrow compared to other bikes, and so initially it can seem like the clutch is either fully in or fully out, with no inbetween. You soon get used to this though and it becomes 2nd nature. Your gear changes will get smoother and smoother the more you ride.

Compared to a Ducati there is miles of smooth movement on the 1200GS clutch

 

[Larne]

Sounds to me as though you are on the point of braking traction - easily done on a 1200GS - just be a bit more gentle with the throttle and clutch when pulling away - how long have you been riding bikes?

I have been riding bikes for 6 years. 4 on a 500cc ER5, 2 on an 800cc F800 and now onto the R1200.

In my first two years I commuted every day, rain or shine, and racked up around 30k miles which was great for the confidence. But I'm finding the R1200 a big step up from the F800 - a good one mind you - especially as I only ended up doing about 5k miles in the past two years.

The bike does have traction control so that could be a factor. Bottom line from the sounds of it this is something that will go away as I get more of a feel for the clutch and get the bike more run in.

I'm loving it though. So glad I took the plunge.

 

[Giles]

Larne

In an effort to be smooth with a clutch, too many people hang on to it for too long and they make matters worse rather than better. They end up dragging it and over complicating life.

Experiment with your clutch and see how quickly (but smoothly) you can use it. When changing up, put yer toes under your gear lever, bring up the tension in it and almost try and change gear while you're driving along. It won't change while you're on the throttle, but the moment you throttle off and just dip the clutch by the smallest amount ..... bang .... you'll make the smoothest and quickest of gear changes. When I'm tramping on, I personally ditch the clutch altogether on a lot of my up changes. If you were my pillion, you wouldn't even know!!!

If you're changing down, again, the quicker (but smoother) you can do it, the better your changes will be.

In line fours work well with a set throttle on your down change, but your twin will respond best to a hefty blip.

 

[JJH]

I must say reading the posts that it appears that Larne has come from a F 800 s which in my experience is much more foregiveing on clutch control and has much less engine breaking and you would probly get away with a more hamfisted style af control. At some stage this approach to motorcycle control will bite back. On changeing to a GSA he has moved the bite back safety envlope to imminent unless he changes his aproach to bike control. As he says all this was hapening below 5000 rpm I dread to think what would happen if he was useing all the rev range. There are very few switches on a modern motorcycle. The clutch is infinatley vairaible not on/off likewise throtle and brakes.
Larne relised his riding had problems and posted them. How many other people would keep going regardless? A few hours with a ROSPA or IAM instructor would help. JJH

 

[Chris Terry]

It's a new bike with new new dynamics. It sounds like your over thinking and concentrating on the mechanics of the bike. Relax look well ahead and enjoy the ride. The more you ride, the more the bike will become second nature.
That said the GS is a bit of a clunker, but you will soon change your riding style to smooth things out.
Wear ear plugs at all times

 

[Myke Rocks]

Just normal

What you are experiencing is just the normal torque reaction of an in line engine. It does not occur on a Goldwing because the alternator is sized and spun in the opposite direction to counteract it.

When one starts to wear varifocals, it is very difficult to read at first until one acclimatises to the need to tilt one's head to position the correct piece of glass in front of one's eyes. After a few weeks, one does it instinctively, and no longer notices it.

Similarly with an in line bike. the sensation disappears with time, unless one is into wheelies or jumps.

Myke

 

[Captain Beaky]

Found the same myself on the 1150GS.

I switched from a YZF600 Thundercat to the BMW, and tried riding it like the inline 4 that it replaced. It doesn't like that at all. When Doing a heavy downshift, it will step out the back, and when on a wet road, she did have enough torque to light up the back tyre... Big Twins have a lot of compression.

If you change gear in a bend, the bike will squirm with the change of revs.
The higher the revs, the worse it is.

It's exactly the same as what happens when you rev it at standstill - the bike gives a little lurch.

The GS's like short shifting - and using the large flat power curve. You don't need to rev them anything like as much as the F800 or ER5 - they are a totally different animal.

Don't dip the clutch and blip the throttle while filtering.....
The resultant "lurch" is most off putting - besides, you don't need to...

Keep gearchanges smooth and relaxed - the above thread is a very good explanation. With the power on, I dip the clucth slightly, feed some pressure on the gear lever, and then slightly dip the throttle a tad - and it snicks into the next gear.

And - if it's a bike that's new to you - take it easy - work it out - while it might perform better than your last one, it won't be the same to ride - don't get pressurised into making a mistake.

 

[MorayGSer]

Larne, I hope you get to grips with GS soon. However I feel you could do with some training maybe Bikesafe or similar. I am not meaning to criticise but what you have said things like changing up on a bend while overtaking cars is not safe riding. You blamed the need not to go over 5.000 revs but I think I'd rather go over 5000 running bike in than change up during overtake on a bend!

I see you ride a lot doing commuting, although time in the saddle gives you experience, it sometimes helps to get advice from outside.