Sounds like a good result, well persevered !UPDATE:
Today I got out and did approx 120 miles with some motorway included. So great to be back out and mobile again!
So. Did all that effort change anything? The answer is a 100% yes.
I managed to sit at about 130kmh for a few stretches. The cycling vibration that was visible on the clocks and satnav has gone.
It's interesting how I had become programmed to expect the vibes to come in. I think I imagined they must be there at one point, but no. The give away is the clocks and satnav. They were clear indicators.
Feeling chuffed and relieved
Sent from my SM-S908B using Tapatalk
Truing a cross spoked front wheel
- Thread starter Slipperyeel
- Start date
.
Would this work for 1100 and 1150 series spoked wheels?
(My motos are in storage at one location a few hours away and my 1200 wheels are in storage another location, also a few hours away in a different direction).
Thanks
(My motos are in storage at one location a few hours away and my 1200 wheels are in storage another location, also a few hours away in a different direction).
Thanks
Sure. These wheels are pretty much identical, only the hubs vary a little (the hubs steadily get lighter from the 1150 > 1200 > 1250).
I took this route because I was looking at buying a second hand wheel and a half decent one was around the 450-550 mark. And that was with no guarantee it would be better than my original wheel... So I took the plunge. Now able to deal with my own wheels. I'm already thinking to build one from scratch, but that's not a cheap exercise either
. Sent from my SM-S908B using Tapatalk
Thank you
carbarrer6
Registered user
Hi Speedyeel,
First off, thanks for the great explanation and the videos. It's a well of knowledge inspiring courage for truing my wheels.
I've done my front about 6 times by now. Getting as best about 0.65 lateral and 0.45 vertical, and always starting over after a few days thinking I could do better, fool
I started almost always with a much better truing start (0.35 lateral 0.25 vertical), but the torquing process pushes it to the final result.
I use a poor's man "truspoke" tool. A tyre thread deph gauge. They are so cheap compare to the cost of the real thing, specially if you consider importing fees. Actually I came to it long time before I learn about the Truespoke tool. My engieenring mind wanted a bit of a baby balnket before I started adjusting all th espokes for the fist time, so I took a measure of each spoke depth in the nipple as a way to have a reference to come back. Crazy, I know.
I bought my rim new in the box as an old stock from BMW dealer warehouse in Germany. Good price but even being new was out of true by 1.3-1.7 and the rim extrusion has a good dip. The well known and poor engineered weld seam. When I pointed it out ro them, they offer to take it back, but I though I could give it a try at truing it.
My method is a bit of a mixed one, I wanted a starting point, but soon I realized the measurement of the spokes was only getting me closer but not there all the way. So I take the average of the outers and inners for the left and the right and then I center the wheel on the disks. After that I start tightening the all the spokes a couple of times (1/4 then 1/8) and check for trueness after each complete round. So far so good. Then I start torquing them in pairs always using the star patern for opposite spokes (1-4, 5-9, 10-14,....) to 1Nm and check the runout, then 1.5Nm and check and so on until 4Nm with 0.5Nm increments. My trick is to go ascending in the first round and in the next round descending in the next one, this way the idea is that the opossite spokes in each star are getting tighted each time as the torque on each spoke affects the opposite one.
With this I mean: first 1Nm to pairs 1 to 20 , then 1.5Nm but starting at 20 instead and ending at 1, then 2Nm 1-20, after that 2.5Nm 20 to 1, and so on, checking in between.
The consequence is that each torquing/tightening round increases the runout by 0..05 or so, as not every spoke is turned for the target torque of that round. It takes time and one has the feeling that is getting a bit worse every time but within tolerance and kind of a good enough result. I'm tone deaf and the plinging thing does not work for me.
Still even in my case the 0.65mm of runout feels woobly when watching it at high spin speed. And I don't like the dipping point at the welded join. I wonder how it will feel when riding.
BTW the reason for all this trouble and costs is to have to sets of wheels, road and off.
And now, my question to you and the rest of the forum:
In the R1200GS air-oil-cooled, mine is a 2009, the front wheel has the ABS sensor mounted between the left disk brake and the wheel hub. it's 1mm thick and makes the disks sit asymmetrically with respect of the hub center. (The right disk is mounted directly on the hub)
So my question is:
When centering the front wheel should I center it in between the disks or over the hub?
I have done it both ways, but my final one is centered between the disk.
It seems all other generations have a separate mounting bracket for the ABS sensor and therefore the center of the hub is also the midpoint between the disks. But not in this one.
Are the brake calipers symetrical or is the left one offset to the fork (by1mm to compensate)?
I know 1mm only means 0.5mm on each side if the wheel is centered the wrong way, but still, we go through a lot of pain to come to this point so I want to do right.
Thanks so much for "listening" and for your patience.
All the best from the west coast of Sweden, (we got lots so much snow these last days
)
Carlos
First off, thanks for the great explanation and the videos. It's a well of knowledge inspiring courage for truing my wheels.
I've done my front about 6 times by now. Getting as best about 0.65 lateral and 0.45 vertical, and always starting over after a few days thinking I could do better, fool
I started almost always with a much better truing start (0.35 lateral 0.25 vertical), but the torquing process pushes it to the final result.
I use a poor's man "truspoke" tool. A tyre thread deph gauge. They are so cheap compare to the cost of the real thing, specially if you consider importing fees. Actually I came to it long time before I learn about the Truespoke tool. My engieenring mind wanted a bit of a baby balnket before I started adjusting all th espokes for the fist time, so I took a measure of each spoke depth in the nipple as a way to have a reference to come back. Crazy, I know.
I bought my rim new in the box as an old stock from BMW dealer warehouse in Germany. Good price but even being new was out of true by 1.3-1.7 and the rim extrusion has a good dip. The well known and poor engineered weld seam. When I pointed it out ro them, they offer to take it back, but I though I could give it a try at truing it.
My method is a bit of a mixed one, I wanted a starting point, but soon I realized the measurement of the spokes was only getting me closer but not there all the way. So I take the average of the outers and inners for the left and the right and then I center the wheel on the disks. After that I start tightening the all the spokes a couple of times (1/4 then 1/8) and check for trueness after each complete round. So far so good. Then I start torquing them in pairs always using the star patern for opposite spokes (1-4, 5-9, 10-14,....) to 1Nm and check the runout, then 1.5Nm and check and so on until 4Nm with 0.5Nm increments. My trick is to go ascending in the first round and in the next round descending in the next one, this way the idea is that the opossite spokes in each star are getting tighted each time as the torque on each spoke affects the opposite one.
With this I mean: first 1Nm to pairs 1 to 20 , then 1.5Nm but starting at 20 instead and ending at 1, then 2Nm 1-20, after that 2.5Nm 20 to 1, and so on, checking in between.
The consequence is that each torquing/tightening round increases the runout by 0..05 or so, as not every spoke is turned for the target torque of that round. It takes time and one has the feeling that is getting a bit worse every time but within tolerance and kind of a good enough result. I'm tone deaf and the plinging thing does not work for me.
Still even in my case the 0.65mm of runout feels woobly when watching it at high spin speed. And I don't like the dipping point at the welded join. I wonder how it will feel when riding.
BTW the reason for all this trouble and costs is to have to sets of wheels, road and off.
And now, my question to you and the rest of the forum:
In the R1200GS air-oil-cooled, mine is a 2009, the front wheel has the ABS sensor mounted between the left disk brake and the wheel hub. it's 1mm thick and makes the disks sit asymmetrically with respect of the hub center. (The right disk is mounted directly on the hub)
So my question is:
When centering the front wheel should I center it in between the disks or over the hub?
I have done it both ways, but my final one is centered between the disk.
It seems all other generations have a separate mounting bracket for the ABS sensor and therefore the center of the hub is also the midpoint between the disks. But not in this one.
Are the brake calipers symetrical or is the left one offset to the fork (by1mm to compensate)?
I know 1mm only means 0.5mm on each side if the wheel is centered the wrong way, but still, we go through a lot of pain to come to this point so I want to do right.
Thanks so much for "listening" and for your patience.
All the best from the west coast of Sweden, (we got lots so much snow these last days
)Carlos
Hello Carlos
I'm interested in your story with truing the wheels. I have lots of thoughts! But perhaps to remain concise, I'll limit my comments.
The TruSpoke tool is, to me at least, provides an invaluable baseline. Keeping in mind I'm no expert! after cleaning every single nipple and thread of each, I then get to within a few turns on each spoke of what I recorded using the TruSpoke tool (the aggregate average of what I recorded - v important detail). From here. I have recently moved to only using the torque meter combined with eyeballing frequent spins on the jig. Note that by then timer I start using the torque meter. Things are already quite tight. So my mission is always to achieve v close to BMW spec on torque, but it's not a religion. The end result is a little varied, the closer I get to torque, the less I care about measurement, the more I care about it being true. In the final 'moments' making it true by rude eye and hand used possible, but obviously with micro turns
For the discs and centering. I remove the disks for truing. They don't enter the truing equation. the only thing the disc position might affect is the ABS sensor. Unless you got a new registration ring or new discs, I don't imagine this to need any adjustment?
Enjoy the snow! You need skis, not wheels
I'm interested in your story with truing the wheels. I have lots of thoughts! But perhaps to remain concise, I'll limit my comments.
The TruSpoke tool is, to me at least, provides an invaluable baseline. Keeping in mind I'm no expert! after cleaning every single nipple and thread of each, I then get to within a few turns on each spoke of what I recorded using the TruSpoke tool (the aggregate average of what I recorded - v important detail). From here. I have recently moved to only using the torque meter combined with eyeballing frequent spins on the jig. Note that by then timer I start using the torque meter. Things are already quite tight. So my mission is always to achieve v close to BMW spec on torque, but it's not a religion. The end result is a little varied, the closer I get to torque, the less I care about measurement, the more I care about it being true. In the final 'moments' making it true by rude eye and hand used possible, but obviously with micro turns
For the discs and centering. I remove the disks for truing. They don't enter the truing equation. the only thing the disc position might affect is the ABS sensor. Unless you got a new registration ring or new discs, I don't imagine this to need any adjustment?
Enjoy the snow! You need skis, not wheels
carbarrer6
Registered user
Yes, I have new disks and ABS sensor ring. The idea is to keep tehm mounted on the wheel to make the swap faster.
The ring makes difficult to use tools on the spokes, so I use a spacer with the same thickness to mount the disks.
I didn't have to clean the spokes or the nipples as they are new. I only oiled them.
Question, how do you get about adjusting with your tool? in cross/star patern or just sequentially around?
How much runout did you ended up with?
The ring makes difficult to use tools on the spokes, so I use a spacer with the same thickness to mount the disks.
I didn't have to clean the spokes or the nipples as they are new. I only oiled them.
Question, how do you get about adjusting with your tool? in cross/star patern or just sequentially around?
How much runout did you ended up with?
Enjoy the snow! You need skis, not wheels
carbarrer6
Registered user
That's the Swedish Police.
Ok. So new ring and discs! That explains a lot.
To be honest, removing the discs to true is not necessary, but it definitely a help.
Sounds like you're going to have a beautiful new wheel but the end! I'm mildly envious!
I tried a start pattern, but found myself going around sequentially in the end. I made a turntable early on, so the wheel is on its side when tightening the spokes. I number all the nipples and go round each side numerically, not in a star pattern. This way I don't miss a nipple. But also note that when its on the turntable, I only take it to about 0.75mm of the aggregate measurement I took. By this point, it's all quite tight, so I then move it onto the jig, where I switch to the torque meter - from here I ignore the distance measurement and switch to torque value, gently creeping up to 3Nm approx. Approx because I am also looking at true and the nearer I get to 3Nm, I prioritise this over the torque value. Hope all trust makes sense!
For finished result. The best I've got is 0.5mm axial runout. Radial less - approx 0.25, if you can ignore the joint in the rim! I think it's really hard to get these wheels much better than that, even from new... Radial runout is actually v important as it will very definitely cause vibration. I did my own rear wheel this last summer while I was changing tyres. Thought I'd check it, only to discover it was well out (1.8-2mm axial)! Within 2-3hrs I had it finished with 0.5mm axial runout
Bike is generally super smooth, I can see in the mirrors at 150kmh no problem.The fact you have new spokes introduces a detail I've not had yet. Spoke length will be important if you're using the TruSpoke tool method...so if they are not yet on your wheel and are still loose, measure them all and get the aggregate average length. I think my first attempt might be to start with torque only...but sequentially. New spokes and nipples will presumably threaded together nicely, so you're likely to get fairly good match all around
carbarrer6
Registered user
That's very interesting. Thanks a lot.
I was only joking
carbarrer6
Registered user
Yes, I even got new brake pads so each disk pair will wear its own set. Maybe overkill, but the pads are cheap compare to the disks. What also adds is the needed 10 extra BMW screws for the disks and even 5 for the rear wheel as alloy and spoke wheels use different length ones.
I'm amazed how you manage to measure runout without clamping down the axle. I have the same balancing stand and I have to use a clamp to fix it so the wheel turn on it's bearings. Otherwise the axle moves back and forward laterally. I tried all kind of spacers to block it laterally in the stand but with gauges show it does not work. And here comes the problem for the rear wheel. I hope to fix it by fixing the axle to fixed pillow block bearings, we shall see once they arrive. How did you manage to do it?
Even though my rims are new. I'm surprised of how much twist there is in the rim (band/tape). I was expecting to be perfect once all the spokes have been adjusted to the same lenght, but no, not even close. Visually they look perfect but they are imperfect and assymetrical right and left side. so I need to measure on both sides, otherwise, one might foolishly think that because they are good in one side they'll be on the other as well. German engineering is a myth.
I'm temped to start over again with mine, but watching you videos again I see the same little "blup" as I have in mine. And you reported that all is good and without vibrations, so that's very reasuring.
In any case I think I'll wait till I'm done with the rear to try again.
I got quite good with my modified depth gauge. I started with a standard caliper but it was difficult to measure. I basically add a tip that will fit the neaple and cut extra material on the sides to fit better. The one I got keeps zeroed from were the nipples bottoned and the spoke hole starts (4.3mm). Anyhow, I got good at corelating my TX40 wrench movement to the decrease of deph (1/4 turn to ca 0.2mm).
Pro-tip: add a small peace of felt to the tip of the dial gauge (runout), that kills the screaching noise of the metal ball against the rim and makes it pleasently quite.
I use 2 dial gauges. I switch between measuring radial runout on both sides, to lateral on both, to finally one set for radial and one for lateral. Also I remove the knobs closest to the gause and add a standard nut, this way I can get closer to horizontal when positioning them on the rim.
(By the way, the reason for doing all of this is that when I asked BMW Sweden if they could true my wheels or if they new where to do it, they told me they send them to a shop in Germany)
Anyhow, thanks again and have a great weekend.
All the best, C
I'm amazed how you manage to measure runout without clamping down the axle. I have the same balancing stand and I have to use a clamp to fix it so the wheel turn on it's bearings. Otherwise the axle moves back and forward laterally. I tried all kind of spacers to block it laterally in the stand but with gauges show it does not work. And here comes the problem for the rear wheel. I hope to fix it by fixing the axle to fixed pillow block bearings, we shall see once they arrive. How did you manage to do it?
Even though my rims are new. I'm surprised of how much twist there is in the rim (band/tape). I was expecting to be perfect once all the spokes have been adjusted to the same lenght, but no, not even close. Visually they look perfect but they are imperfect and assymetrical right and left side. so I need to measure on both sides, otherwise, one might foolishly think that because they are good in one side they'll be on the other as well. German engineering is a myth
.I'm temped to start over again with mine, but watching you videos again I see the same little "blup" as I have in mine. And you reported that all is good and without vibrations, so that's very reasuring.
In any case I think I'll wait till I'm done with the rear to try again.
I got quite good with my modified depth gauge. I started with a standard caliper but it was difficult to measure. I basically add a tip that will fit the neaple and cut extra material on the sides to fit better. The one I got keeps zeroed from were the nipples bottoned and the spoke hole starts (4.3mm). Anyhow, I got good at corelating my TX40 wrench movement to the decrease of deph (1/4 turn to ca 0.2mm).
Pro-tip: add a small peace of felt to the tip of the dial gauge (runout), that kills the screaching noise of the metal ball against the rim and makes it pleasently quite.
I use 2 dial gauges. I switch between measuring radial runout on both sides, to lateral on both, to finally one set for radial and one for lateral. Also I remove the knobs closest to the gause and add a standard nut, this way I can get closer to horizontal when positioning them on the rim.
(By the way, the reason for doing all of this is that when I asked BMW Sweden if they could true my wheels or if they new where to do it, they told me they send them to a shop in Germany)
Anyhow, thanks again and have a great weekend.
All the best, C
On my truing jig I replaced the main rod with silver steel as it's ground circular rather than rolled... Also, my jig came with two cones that you fix in place with grub screws - these push into your bearings tightly, holdng left & right. Did yours not come with these cones? Also, I printed some end stops too hold the rod from riding left or right (it tends to go one way only - in my case it moves left, reaches my stop and stays there).Yes, I even got new brake pads so each disk pair will wear its own set. Maybe overkill, but the pads are cheap compare to the disks. What also adds is the needed 10 extra BMW screws for the disks and even 5 for the rear wheel as alloy and spoke wheels use different length ones.
I'm amazed how you manage to measure runout without clamping down the axle. I have the same balancing stand and I have to use a clamp to fix it so the wheel turn on it's bearings. Otherwise the axle moves back and forward laterally. I tried all kind of spacers to block it laterally in the stand but with gauges show it does not work. And here comes the problem for the rear wheel. I hope to fix it by fixing the axle to fixed pillow block bearings, we shall see once they arrive. How did you manage to do it?
Even though my rims are new. I'm surprised of how much twist there is in the rim (band/tape). I was expecting to be perfect once all the spokes have been adjusted to the same lenght, but no, not even close. Visually they look perfect but they are imperfect and assymetrical right and left side. so I need to measure on both sides, otherwise, one might foolishly think that because they are good in one side they'll be on the other as well. German engineering is a myth
I'm temped to start over again with mine, but watching you videos again I see the same little "blup" as I have in mine. And you reported that all is good and without vibrations, so that's very reasuring.
In any case I think I'll wait till I'm done with the rear to try again.
I got quite good with my modified depth gauge. I started with a standard caliper but it was difficult to measure. I basically add a tip that will fit the neaple and cut extra material on the sides to fit better. The one I got keeps zeroed from were the nipples bottoned and the spoke hole starts (4.3mm). Anyhow, I got good at corelating my TX40 wrench movement to the decrease of deph (1/4 turn to ca 0.2mm).
Pro-tip: add a small peace of felt to the tip of the dial gauge (runout), that kills the screaching noise of the metal ball against the rim and makes it pleasently quite.
I use 2 dial gauges. I switch between measuring radial runout on both sides, to lateral on both, to finally one set for radial and one for lateral. Also I remove the knobs closest to the gause and add a standard nut, this way I can get closer to horizontal when positioning them on the rim.
(By the way, the reason for doing all of this is that when I asked BMW Sweden if they could true my wheels or if they new where to do it, they told me they send them to a shop in Germany)
Anyhow, thanks again and have a great weekend.
All the best, C
Thanks for the tip. Yes, a little piece of felt is a good idea, except I have none, so while it does sound terrible, it seems to do no damage (I've pulled the bearing btw).
One thing I do that might help, is before putting the wheel onto the jig, I drop the wheel a few times onto a rubber pad on my concrete floor. Obviously 'gently' but the idea has been to try and release any uneven tensions, like nipples not quite turning, spokes seating themselves etc. It might do nothing! But a thought.
These wheels are definitely a head banger. I have re-started so many times! (battery driver makes light work of this). I have also just stopped for a day so I can come back to it fresh. can't remember if you're also using a turntable? I'm wondering if starting things with it lying flat helps?
carbarrer6
Registered user
Haha, I stoped for a whole summer. Here when the good weather is out, go and play/sail, no indoors time
For the felt, just cut a small piece of this chair/furniture pads from ikea or similar, they are self adhesive.
BTW, I'm trying to find any official data from BMW regarding the centering vs offseting, but no luck.
You mentioned in one of your video taht the distance between the mounting surface of the disks on the hub and a the rim should be 11.5mm. Where did you get that number from? or you just measured both sides added them and equally divided?
For the felt, just cut a small piece of this chair/furniture pads from ikea or similar, they are self adhesive.
BTW, I'm trying to find any official data from BMW regarding the centering vs offseting, but no luck.
You mentioned in one of your video taht the distance between the mounting surface of the disks on the hub and a the rim should be 11.5mm. Where did you get that number from? or you just measured both sides added them and equally divided?
Ah. For the 11.5mm offset. This i got by laying the hub (no discs fitted) on my surface plate - I have an A3 granite plate, but appreciate that's bit of a luxury - and measured from there getting an average both sides.Haha, I stoped for a whole summer. Here when the good weather is out, go and play/sail, no indoors time
For the felt, just cut a small piece of this chair/furniture pads from ikea or similar, they are self adhesive.
BTW, I'm trying to find any official data from BMW regarding the centering vs offseting, but no luck.
You mentioned in one of your video taht the distance between the mounting surface of the disks on the hub and a the rim should be 11.5mm. Where did you get that number from? or you just measured both sides added them and equally divided?
But...I don't think there is an offset. I really think the pads will centre themselves (it can't be more than 1.6mm?). And the exercise I did was in fact just me not realising I could have: measured the total width of the hub disc lugs - rim width /2 = dimension either side
I worried about centring in the beginning, hence my attempts to measure things, but actually it seems to sort itself out. I think as long as the rim is running true. There's quite a big tolerance on the actual centering in relation to the hub. Within reason of course!
I wouldn't worry about the 'offset'
Last edited:
carbarrer6
Registered user
Hello again,
I'm now starting with the rear rim.
I would like to report that the pillow block bearings don't work. They introduce a 0.5mm extra error so it's back to try to stabilize the lateral movement of the axel/rod in the stand.
Slipperyeel, you mentioned you 3D-printed end stops for the rod. Would you happen to still have the STL file? if you don't mind to share it, I'll save the time of sketching and prototyping a few runs.
Thanks in advance,
C
I'm now starting with the rear rim.
I would like to report that the pillow block bearings don't work. They introduce a 0.5mm extra error so it's back to try to stabilize the lateral movement of the axel/rod in the stand.
Slipperyeel, you mentioned you 3D-printed end stops for the rod. Would you happen to still have the STL file? if you don't mind to share it, I'll save the time of sketching and prototyping a few runs.
Thanks in advance,
C
See file attached. Hope they fit your truing stand
As mentioned, I changed the rod to a piece of silver steel/tool steel so it runs on the jig bearings without getting messed up (which is what happens to the aluminium rod they suit the jig with!). The rod will invariably favour one side, but let it do this and leave it there, running against the end stop
Can't attach the file..."file extension not recognised"
Can I pm you?
carbarrer6
Registered user
of course!See file attached. Hope they fit your truing stand
As mentioned, I changed the rod to a piece of silver steel/tool steel so it runs on the jig bearings without getting messed up (which is what happens to the aluminium rod they suit the jig with!). The rod will invariably favour one side, but let it do this and leave it there, running against the end stop
Can't attach the file..."file extension not recognised"
Can I pm you?
my e-mail is in my profile.
Thanks a lot
Similar threads
