What is ASC?

[Horse1200]

My Ten pence worth

Having recently purchased my `08 gsa, with no electroinic rider aids, such as abs, asc and adjustable electronic suspension. Now it might be great having all those buttons to press and shove.

But a couple things spring to mind (sorry if someone has already mentioned these, havent seen it though)

Its more to go wrong, and alot more expensive when it goes wrong out of the warrenty

With out it it makes you a better more observant rider.

And lastly the funny thing, after a recent off-road trip. Every lane there were couple of bikes, stopping engines off, frantic button shoving/ holding down following some sort of ritual, what am i missing out here, do they have some super anti fall off super traction button. NO THEY WERE TURNING OFF ALL THESE EXPENSIVE, USELESS OFF ROAD FUNCTIONS.

Whats there use again.....


Says it all in my book.

 

[oldrascal]

Just a random thought - can ASC be retro-fitted by a delaer to the latest GSA? Obviously anything can be done at a price, but is it a feasible and straightforward operation.

 

[ebbo]

ASC, ABS and all the other developments are just part of motorcycle development, it’s what’s brought us from this

To this

The market decided what good to stay and what falls by the wayside, so far, ABS is very firmly still in place…

Time will tell on ASC

 

[NorthernBoy]

With out it it makes you a better more observant rider.

...

NO THEY WERE TURNING OFF ALL THESE EXPENSIVE, USELESS OFF ROAD FUNCTIONS.

Whats there use again.....


Says it all in my book.

Putting grease all over your front brake discs, or just fitting the shiniest cheapest rubber that you can find will make you a more observant rider too, so can I assume that you will be recommending that? I had a test ride on a bike last year that felt like it had clapped out cable operated drum brakes. I can assure you that I made much more careful (and, frankly, slower) progress than I do on the BM with its superior setup, but I do not view shitty brakes as being a particularly commendable thing.

I do understand that some people prefer not to have it (the bike is definitely a bit less fun when it is turned on), but these arguments implying that people with it must be idiots, or bad riders really make no sense.

 

[bmwrover]

German motorcycle mag journo said the ABS on the BMW is well developed and works nicely/softly, the ASC on the other hand is not yet there.
It reacts akward, and not refined enough yet.

 

[SMB]

I have both ABS and ASC on my GS. For normal everyday riding I think that it good. I have air bags in my car, I hope that I never use them but I am glad that they are there. They are not an option but standard as on most cars. They do save lives.
It has been suggested that it would be cheaper and there would be less accidents if the steering wheel had an eight inch spike sticking out from the centre - good idea - I think not!
On my GS the abs and asc can be turned off as you ride along, surly the best of both worlds.

 

[dialdn]

ASC of some sort or another is becoming standard on many vehicles. I would expect with some refinement, this will be standard or preferred on bikes in the future.

I did order it on my 09 GSA but haven't ridden the bike yet to comment on it. Under a cover in my garage until the snow disappears.

D

 

[wilbjr21]

My '08 GSA has it. Has activated once that I can recall.

Missus on back with all the gear in the panniers so a lot of weight on the back wheel ..... leaned right over in a right hander and wheel started to slip when power applied a bit too early for the lean angle/load on tyre. No drama at all; power reduced by ASC and slide nipped in the bud.

I like it now. As has been said, there are two settings and you can always turn it off.

As for being unreliable - it's only software isn't it?

 

[John Armstrong]

As for being unreliable - it's only software isn't it?

Must be N*m*s*s / N*m*z*s hasn't been on to tell us how dangerous it is

 

[SonicTheHedgehog]

As for being unreliable - it's only software isn't it?

Yup. My understanding is that all these things are aggressively paranoid, and if there's anything wrong in their startup checks or during operation (hand guards on brake levers, anyone) they'll fail-safe to the underlying systems.
If ASC/ABS goes tits-up up, all that should happen is a collection of blinkenlights on the dash, and you'll have to fall back to the meatware anti-skid systems instead. All the rest of the gear should still work.

 

[Fanum]

I do understand that some people prefer not to have it (the bike is definitely a bit less fun when it is turned on), but these arguments implying that people with it must be idiots, or bad riders really make no sense.

I don't think people are suggesting that those who have the systems are idiots or bad riders because they have them.

My worry though is two-fold.

If a new rider or a 'born again' uses and comes to rely on them, they could become 'bad riders' because they rely on them- then when they either ride a bike without the system or the system fails (and they do!) , they could easily hurt themselves or others because they've lost (or not gained in the first place) the ability to feel the feedback from the bike, or have got used to being able to ride beyond what the conditions would dictate is sensible because their safety systems have always baled them out.

If the system was universal or totally utterly reliable, it may never become an issue, but it's neither- having lots of riders out there who don't use common sense (I winced when I read about someone banked 'right over' two up and cranking the power on above FFS what was he expecting to happen!!) when riding means that they are setting themselves up for a fall if they become too used to relying on the safety systems.

Secondly, what happens in five years when some Gubbmint H&S tw@ looks at the figures and decides that ASC and ABS reduces accidents- the chances are they'll push to make them obligatory on all bikes

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the systems per se- my ABS and linked brakes saved my pillion and I from a potentially fatal off a couple of years ago- it does worry me that too many people will become dependent on them though and get themselves into serious trouble when they fail or they ride a non-equipped bike.

 

[John Armstrong]

- it does worry me that too many people will become dependent on them though and get themselves into serious trouble when they fail or they ride a non-equipped bike.

Sort of Darwinism then in operation, if the ABS / ASC doesn't

And that sort of theory will make us ride 50cc bikes if we got out of town as how many fatalities are there for thaat sized engine bike on country roads

 

[smartrider]

I used to check how slippery the roads are in the mornings by braking progresivly harder , to the point where the bike skids.

Now I can do the same sort of thing with the throttle. how hard can you accelarate before the light comes on.

more fun and probably safer

I have been riding for 40 years And avarage about 30,000 a year.
I do not remember making ABS work in anger And I dont think it will stop you sooner. But it might save you one day.

ASC however gives me lots more confidence on slippery roads.
I did have an incident 7 years ago on a 1150gs, Gunning it hard , heavy rain, roads so wet that I ( did not)could not see a line of overbanding. result back wheel spins, turns the bike sideways. Bike in ditch, Me 100yards up the road. This time no damage to me I just slid along the road. but that was luck, I could have hit a tree, or another vehicle and not survived.

All i needed to do was shut the throttle as soon as the wheel lost traction. However it happens so fast ( + I am very old and Slow) That I think I still had the throttle pinned whilst I was wondering why the back wheel was overtaking me

I would like to think that ASC would have saved that incident .



All these gadgets are what is known as progress. Provided they are in the background to assist you if you make an error ( we are all human and make errors sometimes) then I am all for them and would spec them every time.

You can turn them off if you need to.

 

[Fanum]

All these gadgets are what is known as progress. Provided they are in the background to assist you if you make an error ( we are all human and make errors sometimes) then I am all for them and would spec them every time.

As you say- provided they are there and used to assist if you make an error.

That's not how they're being seen though....just look at some of the posts above.

Electronic aids let the rest of us get closer to the limits of what the bike will do, more of the time. They are a performance aid every bit as much as a safety aid, much of the time

With them being used as 'performance aids', the stakes are higher and when people inevitably hit the limits of the 'perfomance aids', the accident is going to be worse because the envelope has been pushed.

 

[wilbjr21]

Fanum wrote:

(I winced when I read about someone banked 'right over' two up and cranking the power on above FFS what was he expecting to happen!!)

Now don't go trying to upset me as well with your mis-quotes.

This was a sh*tty Bridgestone (IMO) I had on. I was not "cranking" the power on but was merely trying to keep up with the Blue Sweeper (on a Honda XL 650) - which is no easy task as you probably know well.

I was hoping to illustrate how the ASC will work.

 

[Fanum]

Fanum wrote:


Now don't go trying to upset me as well with your mis-quotes.

This was a sh*tty Bridgestone (IMO) I had on. I was not "cranking" the power on but was merely trying to keep up with the Blue Sweeper (on a Honda XL 650) - which is no easy task as you probably know well.

I was hoping to illustrate how the ASC will work.

Fair enough- but with respect, that was bad riding and it was nice that the safety system stopped an accident.

My example when my ABS kicked in was also bad riding and poor observation on MY part, and again, the safety system baled me out which was nice.

That's my point...that's what the systems are for and it's good that we both had them to correct what were actually rider mistakes.

People using them as performance aids though, to be able to ride like that on wet roads as a matter of course and to take muddy roundabouts faster 'cos they know that the systems will correct things are just asking for big trouble when the systems fail or they reach the limits of what the systems can do

 

[wilbjr21]

Fanum wrote:

People using them as performance aids though, to be able to ride like that on wet roads as a matter of course and to take muddy roundabouts faster 'cos they know that the systems will correct things are just asking for big trouble when the systems fail or they reach the limits of what the systems can do

You won't get an argument from me over this.

 

[Ogmios]

just my observations

Some of the response to this thread comes from Riders that started out many, many years ago.
most likely on inferior machines - in c.c. or sheer quality.
so, we learned often the hard way what goes wrong when a Rider for e.g. "runs out of talent halfway round a bend" and bins it.

most of us (not all) lived to tell the tale. improve our Bikes and our skill level.
sometimes the scars / lingering injuries remind us, if nothing else does.

today,
many can and do simply think "coo, i'd love to take up motorcycling".

Great! the more of 'us' the better / the more on Powered Two Wheelers: the less on four .

however,
it's not like The Olden Days rob).
anyone can get the bare minimum training demanded by legislation and get out there and join in the fun.

BUT!
this does not equate to the 'School of hard knocks' as experienced by the elder lemons of Biking.
So....
it does leave the possibly open for many avoidable crashes to occur.

Risk Compensation in the form of advanced technology applied to Bikes tries to compensate.
(i.m.o.) it cant.

see the link below for the possible future.
i'm part of the "consortium" as a consultant to FEMA.

just because i'm /FEMA is involved - does not mean wholehearted support for the ideas and intentions expressed.
but if you aint involved you have no hope of... how shall i put this...

pointing out the futility of well intentioned (gods save me from well meaning but clueless people!) endeavours.

it's heavy reading - but in a nutshell - it's a lot of hi tech input into bike control / less (skilled) input by the Rider.
see the menu on the left - specifically look at "ADAS" and "IVIS"
http://www.saferider-eu.org/index.html

 

[NorthernBoy]

People using them as performance aids though, to be able to ride like that on wet roads as a matter of course and to take muddy roundabouts faster 'cos they know that the systems will correct things are just asking for big trouble when the systems fail or they reach the limits of what the systems can do

I assume that you are referring to me. Yes, when a system on a bike fails you can get into big trouble. Relying on your front brake as a performance aid is also asking for big trouble when it fails, I assume.

You are also apparently assuming that using it as a performance aid means that I am just whacking the throttle wide open and letting the electronics do the work, which is ridiculous.

Again, suggesting that we not use the new technology if we find it useful is like saying that we should not go to twin discs, radial dual compound tyres, HID bulbs and ABS, as these all mean that we can be carrrying a higher speed when they fail.

As mentioned above, pretty much all of us are comfortable using a lot of newer technology. We do not argue for a manual advance lever any longer, or for solid tyres, twin shocks and so on.

In fact, I find it pretty ironic that riders of BMWs, which have hardly been at the back of the queue with technical innovations, should be the ones to poo-pooh the introduction of something that may prove very useful. If you guys don't need it or want it, I'm not about to even suggest that you ought to have it, but I like it, and am very happy with it now being available.

 

[Fluffy Bridges]

Some of the response to this thread comes from Riders that started out many, many years ago.
most likely on inferior machines - in c.c. or sheer quality.
so, we learned often the hard way what goes wrong when a Rider for e.g. "runs out of talent halfway round a bend" and bins it.

most of us (not all) lived to tell the tale. improve our Bikes and our skill level.
sometimes the scars / lingering injuries remind us, if nothing else does.

today,
many can and do simply think "coo, i'd love to take up motorcycling".

Great! the more of 'us' the better / the more on Powered Two Wheelers: the less on four .

however,
it's not like The Olden Days rob).
anyone can get the bare minimum training demanded by legislation and get out there and join in the fun.

BUT!
this does not equate to the 'School of hard knocks' as experienced by the elder lemons of Biking.
So....
it does leave the possibly open for many avoidable crashes to occur.

Risk Compensation in the form of advanced technology applied to Bikes tries to compensate.
(i.m.o.) it cant.

see the link below for the possible future.
i'm part of the "consortium" as a consultant to FEMA.

just because i'm /FEMA is involved - does not mean wholehearted support for the ideas and intentions expressed.
but if you aint involved you have no hope of... how shall i put this...

pointing out the futility of well intentioned (gods save me from well meaning but clueless people!) endeavours.

it's heavy reading - but in a nutshell - it's a lot of hi tech input into bike control / less (skilled) input by the Rider.
see the menu on the left - specifically look at "ADAS" and "IVIS"
http://www.saferider-eu.org/index.html

Could not have put this better.

The modern outlook is is for everything to be instantaneous . There exists an "I can think it, therefore I can do it" attitude that utterly ignores the importance of ability, experience and training. It is unfortunate that the best way to learn is by experience. Hopefully, that experience will lie within the bounds of what the individual can cope with, minimising risk.
The best safety device fitted to a bike is between the ears of the rider, given the correct input .

Is the inclusion of ABS, TCS, ASC, PDQ, TBA and bar really about getting as many new riders onto bikes as safely as possible (and helping existing riders/customers to survive and therefore continue to buy) using technology to make up for their lack of experience or skill or limiting litigation following injury .
Shan't be long before "I fell off my bike and hurt myself 'cos your ABS, TCS, ASC, PDQ, TBA and bar, Mr BMW, failed to function" becomes acceptable as an excuse for ignoring due dilligence .

I was a complete nutter in my teens and twenties. How ever I survived, I fail to understand. No gizmos then. Just the ever increasing knowledge that getting it wrong hurts so don't do it.

Other than the self test, I don;t believe the ABS has kicked in on either my old K12RS or the GSA (yet) and I'm still no slouch. Good to know it's there though for when senility and infirmity get the better of ability.

Steps back and waits for broadside :.