Which foot do you use??

[Flipfly]

Flipfly ... the Hendon Shuffle is archaic and ridiculous... trust me



www.adventure.gs

If you don't like it don't use it

But, if someone is happy with it and it works for them and it does no damage.......................why change it because it's not the done thing.

The thing that p*sses me off about advanced riders is the "were perfect and if you don't do it our way then your wrong" attitude. It's why I now avoid you guys like the plague.

You are of course the only people that can ride a bike and as such we should all be in awe.

Twenty years is a good amount of experience, and whilst my riding is not perfect I try to make it better everytime I ride the bike. I know what I should be doing, I just don't get it right all the time. I could use a little more road, I could be a little smoother, etc.

I don't subscribe to hanging off the seat, others do and it works for them.

You have more experience than me because you are older, that doesn't necessarily mean you are better. Casey Stoner is a Pup and has less experience than Valentino Rossi, the boys doing alright though.

You are obviously a very good rider, but your attitude to other peoples riding stinks. Some people have natural ability, others have to work to achieve a decent level of riding. Being the latter, I object to your high and mighty attitude and the condescending way you speak.

God forbid that someone should not agree with you.

I try to avoid potholes grids and white lines too if I can, but ias you say if you look far enough you can do this unnoticed. I also try to pick my way between the cats eyes on overtakes, for no other reason than it makes me plan a little bit further ahead and it's smoother. Catch em every now and again though.

 

[sycomoto]

If this helps

If you don't like it don't use it

But, if someone is happy with it and it works for them and it does no damage.......................why change it because it's not the done thing.

The thing that p*sses me off about advanced riders is the "were perfect and if you don't do it our way then your wrong" attitude. It's why I now avoid you guys like the plague.

You are of course the only people that can ride a bike and as such we should all be in awe.

Twenty years is a good amount of experience, and whilst my riding is not perfect I try to make it better everytime I ride the bike. I know what I should be doing, I just don't get it right all the time. I could use a little more road, I could be a little smoother, etc.

I don't subscribe to hanging off the seat, others do and it works for them.

You have more experience than me because you are older, that doesn't necessarily mean you are better. Casey Stoner is a Pup and has less experience than Valentino Rossi, the boys doing alright though.

You are obviously a very good rider, but your attitude to other peoples riding stinks. Some people have natural ability, others have to work to achieve a decent level of riding. Being the latter, I object to your high and mighty attitude and the condescending way you speak.

God forbid that someone should not agree with you.

I try to avoid potholes grids and white lines too if I can, but ias you say if you look far enough you can do this unnoticed. I also try to pick my way between the cats eyes on overtakes, for no other reason than it makes me plan a little bit further ahead and it's smoother. Catch em every now and again though.

Flip, having ridden a fair bit with you i can say your one of the smoothest riders i've ridden with. Ride how you feel best, at the end of the day YOU should feel happy with your ride no one elses. if you want to do the shuffle do itif you don't Don't. I've ridden with some very good riders and some very bad one's the funny thing is some of the bad ones have been IAM and DAS instructers, the best have been the likes of Bill ward, Pastyman and my mate Lee Hulme. He stands out as what can only be decribed as Natural Tallent.
i've ridden with some guys who are super fast but have no real idea of what they are doing and i've ridden with the likes of you Flip who i'd describe as steady but makes good progress. At the end of the day just ride your ride and enjoy. We all do something special when we don a lid and its the thing that bonds all motorcyclists, i't doesn't matter if you ride a rossi rep or like myself a big old cruiser its the RIDE that counts. Guys you need to stop bitching about which is the right method to put yer feet down and just get out and ride otherwise you may as well start a thread about brake use and whether you apply front,rear both and in which order.

 

[Flipfly]

whether you apply front,rear both and in which order.

Or in the case of the Harley......which brake you'd like to work

 

[laikin' art]

Twenty years is a good amount of experience...

Is that twenty years of progressive experience, or the first year repeated nineteen times as is often the case.

 

[sycomoto]

very true chap

Or in the case of the Harley......which brake you'd like to work

it does help you plan ahead and hones your ability to anticipate the actions of others. Vanishing point is important but just feels like its in slow motion, its like ooow a corner........................its opening......................arr theres the apex..............................................now add some gas.......................oh yeh nice line and i didn't grind off the primary cover. makes a change from my old days of warp factor three, knee down,head down "i'm a racing god" style. Arrrr your all thinking "he's getting old" yep I guess i am, but i'm HAPPY

 

[Flipfly]

Is that twenty years of progressive experience, or the first year repeated nineteen times as is often the case.

Everytime I ride the bike I try to improve.

I stopped trying to go quicker many years ago, now I search for the perfect ride. I've come close, but not quite there yet. Just means I have to keep going out and looking for it IYKWIM

 

[Micky]

It's quite clear here who is on their 'high horse' and a teeny weeny bit upset about criticism

High and mighty attitude..... mmmmmm

As I say... employ a teenager while they know everything

Over and out

www.adventure.gs

PS. All I said was... "Flipfly ... the Hendon Shuffle is archaic and ridiculous... trust me"

How the hell is that a High and Mighty, Condescending or a stinking attitude??

 

[Flipfly]

I just love it when someone tells me they've been riding for a whole twenty years

I was riding before they were born... but that is of no consequence, to see someone riding neatly, smoothly, and in control is of the essence...

... but I don't se it very often

D'ya know that I've done a few IAM test for a neighbouring group, their examiner puts his 'bike away for winter...

A couple of examples????

So the guy puts his bike away for winter. I don't but it's his choice, doesn't mean you should look down your nose at him for choosing to care for his bike.

The last thing I have is a high and mighty attitude. Read my posts and you will see I am very humble about the standard of my riding. I was trained by my father who was an advanced trained officer (exceptional score in his test) and I have had time with a police advanced instructor. I learnt the theory about 3 years before I was legally allowed to ride on the road. All that said, my riding can always be improved and it's what I enjoy about riding the bike.

I grew up with my dad teaching both learner riders and later teaching advanced motorcycle instructors as you do now.
I've seen him make mistakes and he'll openly admit it. he has the same attitude to riding in that you can always be better. I still look up to him and my brother who are much quicker and smoother riders than me.

You may have alot of experience behind you, but you are not without fault yourself, that I will guarantee

 

[sycomoto]

my bit again

It's quite clear here who is on their 'high horse' and a teeny weeny bit upset about criticism

High and mighty attitude..... mmmmmm

As I say... employ a teenager while they know everything

Over and out

www.adventure.gs

PS. All I said was... "Flipfly ... the Hendon Shuffle is archaic and ridiculous... trust me"

How the hell is that a High and Mighty, Condescending or a stinking attitude??

high and mighty he ain't more round and proud and as for criticism, ha nobody give's themselves a harder time than Flip. to be honest im my eyes thats his biggest fault, he batters himself over any shortfalls he see's in his riding. as i said before he's a good smooth rider,not fast nor slow just right. I have no issues sitting on his tail, all his overtakes are klean. i feel he'd make a good examiner. Look this is all a bit silly imho if you like to shuffle do so if yer don't don't, stop with the slaggin off and go ride yer bikes.

 

[Micky]

"You may have alot of experience behind you, but you are not without fault yourself, that I will guarantee"

I totally agree... totally totally agree

I threw my 'bike down the road in Ireland last October

I'm still learning. and the day anyone stops learning in this game is is done for

People still do the Hendon Shuffle because that is how it was taught many years ago, people still do it... why? Because they've always done it that way! That's how they were taught, by people who have always done it that way

It's outdated, time consuming and can be unsafe

It actually looks faffy

Do'ya sit there in traffic covering your rear brake? Well I can tell you I'm ready for 'gear gone'

6% of serious motorcycle accidents are rear end shunts. Part of the Hendon Shuffle's philosophy is to cover your rear break when stationary... in case of a rear end shunt OK mates, let's brace ourselves for impact Cobblers... I'm outa there

I have people that come for test that do it... and they are always, without exception, the last away from the lights, often with cars each side moving off ahead of them... leaving them in a difficult and possible dangerous situation

I don't dispute that you are a smooth and good rider, and I for one with 300,000 miles under my belt since the four valve boxers came on the scene am still learning.... and hope to continue for many a year yet

If it works for you FlipFly then fine, please continue, but that 'learning process' means looking at new ideas, principles and chains of thought. Not just doing it because that's how it's always been done... which is the case of the Hendon Shuffle

 

[MikeP]

I totally agree...

Etc.....

That's the best summation of the topic, from probably the best placed person here to deliver it.

 

[mbp]

6% of serious motorcycle accidents are rear end shunts. Part of the Hendon Shuffle's philosophy is to cover your rear break when stationary... in case of a rear end shunt OK mates, let's brace ourselves for impact Cobblers... I'm outa there

I've been hit from behind, years ago on my Across. No damage as she just scraped against the side, but it was scary. The dingbat said "Oh, I thought you were parked." And if I was parked it's ok to hit me?

Anyhow. I normally put down whichever foot looks most secure. On the GS I pay a lot of attention to the camber. For long stops I change into neutral and then keep my left foot on the peg.

I am a bit skeptical about people who like to be in gear so they can move off if someone's about to hit you. It's pretty hard to judge their closing speed and deceleration through your rear view mirror, and of course you cannot see their brake lights. You don't want to be always darting up the footpath or between the lanes just because someone's coming up a bit fast. A car braking from 30km/h or so, fast enough to hurt, is going to do that in just the last few seconds of travel - or not. It seems you have a pretty small time window to make the assessment that they're not going to stop, and then move off into your safety gap - even assuming there is somewhere safe to move and you planned it beforehand.

I would think most people only get time for "oh shit" - that might be enough to grab the brake, but not to rev, clutch out, and move away. Did anyone ever successfully do it?

Though thinking about this, I might make an effort to leave my bike pointing towards a gap between vehicles in front. At least if I do get shunted then it'll be into a space, not directly into a solid object.

 

[Flipfly]

"You may have alot of experience behind you, but you are not without fault yourself, that I will guarantee"

I totally agree... totally totally agree

I threw my 'bike down the road in Ireland last October

I'm still learning. and the day anyone stops learning in this game is is done for

People still do the Hendon Shuffle because that is how it was taught many years ago, people still do it... why? Because they've always done it that way! That's how they were taught, by people who have always done it that way

It's outdated, time consuming and can be unsafe

It actually looks faffy

Do'ya sit there in traffic covering your rear brake? Well I can tell you I'm ready for 'gear gone'

6% of serious motorcycle accidents are rear end shunts. Part of the Hendon Shuffle's philosophy is to cover your rear break when stationary... in case of a rear end shunt OK mates, let's brace ourselves for impact Cobblers... I'm outa there

I have people that come for test that do it... and they are always, without exception, the last away from the lights, often with cars each side moving off ahead of them... leaving them in a difficult and possible dangerous situation

I don't dispute that you are a smooth and good rider, and I for one with 300,000 miles under my belt since the four valve boxers came on the scene am still learning.... and hope to continue for many a year yet

If it works for you FlipFly then fine, please continue, but that 'learning process' means looking at new ideas, principles and chains of thought. Not just doing it because that's how it's always been done... which is the case of the Hendon Shuffle

How many accidents are cause by people jumping red lights?

I very nearly got taken out in the car by a youth in a vauxhall corsa doing about 70mph in a 30 mph limit straight through a red light (this particular junction has no real view to the right as it is obscured by a building, although you can see the lights change as the left side is open). I took my time leaving the junction, which I am sure saved my life.

For every positive of the right foot down, I also believe there is a negative that is covered by the left foot down.

I agree that new ideas need to be considered, but I use the shuffle because it feels comfortable and it does not impede my progress to a noticable degree. You may get away quicker, but I'll be right behind you at the next set

 

[Flipfly]

I've been hit from behind, years ago on my Across. No damage as she just scraped against the side, but it was scary. The dingbat said "Oh, I thought you were parked." And if I was parked it's ok to hit me?

Anyhow. I normally put down whichever foot looks most secure. On the GS I pay a lot of attention to the camber. For long stops I change into neutral and then keep my left foot on the peg.

I am a bit skeptical about people who like to be in gear so they can move off if someone's about to hit you. It's pretty hard to judge their closing speed and deceleration through your rear view mirror, and of course you cannot see their brake lights. You don't want to be always darting up the footpath or between the lanes just because someone's coming up a bit fast. A car braking from 30km/h or so, fast enough to hurt, is going to do that in just the last few seconds of travel - or not. It seems you have a pretty small time window to make the assessment that they're not going to stop, and then move off into your safety gap - even assuming there is somewhere safe to move and you planned it beforehand.

I would think most people only get time for "oh shit" - that might be enough to grab the brake, but not to rev, clutch out, and move away. Did anyone ever successfully do it?

Though thinking about this, I might make an effort to leave my bike pointing towards a gap between vehicles in front. At least if I do get shunted then it'll be into a space, not directly into a solid object.

I agree with that completely

Having had a rear end shunt in a car many years back, the only warning was a quick skreach of tyres and boom!!!

Mind it's only happened once in over 750,000+ miles of driving.

 

[Hookster]

Know Nowt Tyke Tosser

........that's me BTW

Personally and having only recently passed my IAM Bike Test, I much prefer the Henderson shuffle. (as in Dicky )

It is awful but I like it!

onyack

 

[laikin' art]

Personally and having only recently passed my IAM Bike Test, I much prefer the Henderson shuffle. (as in Dicky )

It is awful but I like it!

That would be Emery shuffle then.

 

[Nate]

I agree that new ideas need to be considered, but I use the shuffle because it feels comfortable and it does not impede my progress to a noticable degree. You may get away quicker, but I'll be right behind you at the next set

Ok, I was going to sit this out, but I fancy a good kicking today... so here goes...

To summarise, I think that everyone so far has said something along the lines of...

"it depends on the situation, sometimes the right foot down, sometimes the Hendon Shuffle"

Apart from you Mr Flipfly. You are consistently banging on about how good it is, even though, by your own admission, it does have its limits and negative points.

So, why do you use it religeously?

I mean, do you also indicate at roundabouts and junctions when there is no other traffic?

I guess my concern is that riding a bike should not be a robotic procedure, the rider should adapt and flow according to the situation...

Its the system (IPSGA or what ever you want to call it), its the Taking and Giving of Information. Its called flair, a bit of sparkle in the ride and just plain bloody staying alive...

There, thats my bit said... Feel free to kick me in the balls for it

 

[Micky]

Anyhow. I normally put down whichever foot looks most secure. On the GS I pay a lot of attention to the camber.


Though thinking about this, I might make an effort to leave my bike pointing towards a gap between vehicles in front. At least if I do get shunted then it'll be into a space, not directly into a solid object.

I'll go with that.... but don't just make an effort to leave your 'bike pointing towards a gap between the vehicles in front... do it, it may save your life one day. As soon as you are losing speed for a hazard ahead then you need to check what's going off behind you. You can spot the pratt that's making ground on you quickly, that's not rocket science, and you need to be out of his way.

The Hendon Shuffle was devised in the 50's and 60's when there were only a few Morris Minor 1000's and Austn 7's on the road... where the trainers were usually ex army and regimentational. In todays traffic it is out of date and totally unnecessary. However, it's up to the individual of course.

Flipfly ... so you're going to be behind me at the next set of lights are you... then you must have been speeding

Speaking of Rocket Science... and The Michael Flatly Wannabe's...

 

[sycomoto]

Flatly wanabees

I'll go with that.... but don't just make an effort to leave your 'bike pointing towards a gap between the vehicles in front... do it, it may save your life one day. As soon as you are losing speed for a hazard ahead then you need to check what's going off behind you. You can spot the pratt that's making ground on you quickly, that's not rocket science, and you need to be out of his way.

The Hendon Shuffle was devised in the 50's and 60's when there were only a few Morris Minor 1000's and Austn 7's on the road... where the trainers were usually ex army and regimentational. In todays traffic it is out of date and totally unnecessary. However, it's up to the individual of course.

Flipfly ... so you're going to be behind me at the next set of lights are you... then you must have been speeding

Speaking of Rocket Science... and The Michael Flatly Wannabe's...

I see your point here but having just read that a couple of time i've drawn the concusion that its not the shuffle at fault but the riders lack of anticipation that caused the slow getaway. As i've said in the past i've riden with Flip and he's watching the oposite lights, when they start changing he's already done the shuffle and is ready to feed out the clutch and go. This is my point theres nothing wrong with the shuffle. its how its applied.

 

[Micky]

I see your point here but having just read that a couple of time i've drawn the concusion that its not the shuffle at fault but the riders lack of anticipation that caused the slow getaway. As i've said in the past i've riden with Flip and he's watching the oposite lights, when they start changing he's already done the shuffle and is ready to feed out the clutch and go. This is my point theres nothing wrong with the shuffle. its how its applied.

Yeah... but that other traffic at the side of you might also be watching the cross lights and move off on a hint of a glint of green, especially so in todays traffic.

One of the first things I was taught, and look for, is when setting off or otherwise moving through a junction, with a green light, you must check for traffic coming through on a red, at speed... as Flipfly quite rightly points out.

The Hendon Shuffle was OK in its day... but things have moved on and now we're in the 21 century. As said, it was always taught because it was always taught and no one questioned the instructors in those far off days. I was taught it in 1980 but questioned it's usefulness...and the stock answer was "Because it's how we do it, we've always done it this way". When asked why I'm told it's because we may get rammed up the rear

When I became a class one police motorcycle instructor and examiner the Hendon Shuffle was relegated to the past. As a royal escort motorcyclist and three years as an undercover surveillance motorcyclist in the regional crime squad there most certainly wasn't place for the HS ... you'd just get taken out by your colleagues

The essence of good riding is, amongst other things, smooothness, and if we can make three manoevres in to two, two manoeuvres in to one, then it's got to be easier, safer, smoother and with less wear and tear on the tyres, brakes and central nervous system, with more time to spend on the other road users



www.adventure.gs