Wits end.

[Dugster]

Hello , I'm looking for any tips on what to check next with the bike. Symptoms are poor starting from cold, requiring an open throttle. Once initially warmed it will start closed throttle. It idles with an odd miss/pop every once in a while. On it's test run after the reassembly it ran fine, apart from the idle.

Items replaced at rebuild: Full set of O.E coils, Lambda's, plugs, crank sensor, fuel pressure reg and pump were also replaced with Quantum parts . Valve clearances checked. Injectors both spray a good cone.

Once running it appears to be running far to rich. Eye streamingly rich. I am now wondering of its one of the ecu's

 

[botus]

when its running - is lambda 1 voltage moving ? should move about I thought 470 to 900mV one of yours seems oddly low.... have you got a connection issue on that sensor

china sell them delivered to your house for 15 quid a PAIR - ad says RT and the wires are a few inches longer but at that price I'm not complaining !!!!!!!

AND why are your wheels speeds going so fast in first screenshot?

that's mine from the later layout

Temperature (cylinder head 2) : 99.8 °C
Ignition angle : 8.2 °KW
Throttle valve position : 0.00 %
Engine load : 9.78 %
Battery voltage : 14.30 V
Knock sensor 1 : 19.96 V
Knock sensor 2 : 16.35 V
Ignition dwell time : 1.9 ms
Odometer : 63822.0 km
Front wheel speed : 0.0 km/h
Rear wheel speed : 0.0 km/h
Gear position : N
Idle actuator position 1 : 109.0
Idle actuator position 2 : 109.0
Ambient air pressure : 1029 mBar
Lambda sensor voltage 1 : 703.1 mV
Lambda sensor voltage 2 : 859.4 mV
Side-stand switch 1 : Extended
Side-stand switch 2 : Extended
Side-stand switch calculated : Extended
Clutch switch : Not Actuated
Kill switch : RUN
Oil switch : NOT OK
Start switch : Not Actuated
Tank venting valve : OFF
Engine over-temperature light : OFF
Actuation of starter relay : OFF
Lambda sensor heating 1 : OFF
Lambda sensor heating 2 : ON
Fuel pump : ON
Engine safety cut-out (of BMSK) : OFF
Starter function (of BMSK) : ON
Starter safety cut-out (of BMSK) : OFF
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) : OFF
Additive Trim bank 1 : 0.05 %
Additive Trim bank 2 : 0.05 %
Multiplicative Trim bank 1 : 0.99
Multiplicative Trim bank 2 : 0.98

 

[snelly]

Hello , I'm looking for any tips on what to check next with the bike. Symptoms are poor starting from cold, requiring an open throttle. Once initially warmed it will start closed throttle. It idles with an odd miss/pop every once in a while. On it's test run after the reassembly it ran fine, apart from the idle.

Items replaced at rebuild: Full set of O.E coils, Lambda's, plugs, crank sensor, fuel pressure reg and pump were also replaced with Quantum parts . Valve clearances checked. Injectors both spray a good cone.

Once running it appears to be running far to rich. Eye streamingly rich. I am now wondering of its one of the ecu'sView attachment 405122View attachment 405123

The only thing i noticed was the bike was in neutral; all engines perform differently under load;

 

[DrFarkoff]

The only thing i noticed was the bike was in neutral; all engines perform differently under load;

Never mind that crap from that idiot above

Have you reset the Stepper motors ?? Are they working ?? its weird to see them both at the same value as they are normally bouncing up and down

I suspect that if you need throttle from cold ?? , then they are stuck or not working

i.e. Not permitting enough air in to burn the excess fuel when cold

It runs when warmed because the fuel is not condensing from an atomised spray as it does on the cold engine

P.S. if you suspect a lamda? Disconnect both of them The ECu will then run a default base map that will be a little richer than normal (to save motor from running too lean if one is damaged!)

 

[theoneandonly]

both lambda readings are quite away apart ? i expect them to bounce up and down , but the readings to be close to each other at peak and trough
look at the 2 knock sensors too. don't have these on a Guzzi ( yet ) i think i would expect as above
is this an instantaneous shot ?

look at all the pairs of numbers , some are spot on others are off ?

go swop the lambda's around , see if the numbers swop with them . it may just be a poor connection , or a shite lambda.

just cos you put loads of new parts on , doesn't mean they will work !

my money is on a lambda .

if you have the originals , swop them back in 1 by 1 , along with the coils.

1 thing at a time , check and verify . you are now going to find out why mechanics charge for diagnosis. you have fired a parts cannon , and may have a faulty part fitted , now you have to work out what it is.

 

[DrFarkoff]

both lambda readings are quite away apart ? i expect them to bounce up and down , but the readings to be close to each other at peak and trough
look at the 2 knock sensors too. don't have these on a Guzzi ( yet ) i think i would expect as above
is this an instantaneous shot ?

look at all the pairs of numbers , some are spot on others are off ?

go swop the lambda's around , see if the numbers swop with them . it may just be a poor connection , or a shite lambda.

just cos you put loads of new parts on , doesn't mean they will work !

my money is on a lambda .

if you have the originals , swop them back in 1 by 1 , along with the coils.

1 thing at a time , check and verify . you are now going to find out why mechanics charge for diagnosis. you have fired a parts cannon , and may have a faulty part fitted , now you have to work out what it is.

That was my first thought too but when starting from cold the lamda are out of the equation as it is in Open Loop and only goes closed loop closer to operating temp (basically when the temp goes up enough that the fuel trims lower to normal percentages)

Just disconnecting the lamda will do no harm (especially if you have a decat system ) and eliminates all possibility of them being the problem

When the Lamda are "not seen" it just runs the slightly richer base map "open loop"

The having to use throttle to start implied to me that it needs air at that stage the Stepper motors should be wide open

Ah and of course not being there to run the tests we would do normally doesn't get all the questions answered

Does it misfire under load when accelerating??

 

[snelly]

Never mind that crap from that idiot above

Have you reset the Stepper motors ?? Are they working ?? its weird to see them both at the same value as they are normally bouncing up and down

I suspect that if you need throttle from cold ?? , then they are stuck or not working

i.e. Not permitting enough air in to burn the excess fuel when cold

It runs when warmed because the fuel is not condensing from an atomised spray as it does on the cold engine

P.S. if you suspect a lamda? Disconnect both of them The ECu will then run a default base map that will be a little richer than normal (to save motor from running too lean if one is damaged!)

Some why do they use dyno's for set up; race teams could save a fortune eh; fuckin mong.

 

[DrFarkoff]

Some why do they use dyno's for set up; race teams could save a fortune eh; fuckin mong.

Ehm Not sure what you are getting at here?? Did I rattle your cage or something this morning @snelly ??

Any vehicle on a Dyno is always at working temp, before any "power runs" are made

There is a base map the open loop programmed to any vehicle ECU, When an injected motor is cold it overfuels by about 30 % and the "choke" on an 1100 1150 for example is just a throttle butterfly opener to allow more fuel in to burn that excess fuel Thats why an 1150 when cold runs like a bag of schit until you crack the throttle an 1/8 th of an inch or use that fast idle lever
1200s lost the lever and the air mixture at idle is controlled by the ECU via stepper motors on the throttle bodies using a cone shaped end to plug or open the idle air passage as commanded

As the engine warms up and goes to working temperature fuel trims, the Lamda is supposed to kick in (goes closed loop) and start to adjust the injector solenoid timings, so more or less fuel is injected trying to get the perfect mixture for it's set parameters/emissions

 

[Denroy_916]

Take this with a pinch of salt as usual - it sound very rich at at idle and with a closed throttle the AFR is maintained the stepper motor(s) position, fuel metering would be open loop and dictated by oil/ coolant and ambient air temp. By opening the throttle you are giving it a bit more air to the point that the AFR will ignite. My understanding is that the displayed reading is 'demand' not 'feedback. I would check that the stepper motors are doing what they are asked to do as a first step, not sure what the easy to do that would be, but I would start there.

 

[snelly]

Ehm Not sure what you are getting at here?? Did I rattle your cage or something this morning @snelly ??

Any vehicle on a Dyno is always at working temp, before any "power runs" are made

There is a base map the open loop programmed to any vehicle ECU, When an injected motor is cold it overfuels by about 30 % and the "choke" on an 1100 1150 for example is just a throttle butterfly opener to allow more fuel in to burn that excess fuel Thats why an 1150 when cold runs like a bag of schit until you crack the throttle an 1/8 th of an inch or use that fast idle lever
1200s lost the lever and the air mixture at idle is controlled by the ECU via stepper motors on the throttle bodies using a cone shaped end to plug or open the idle air passage as commanded

As the engine warms up and goes to working temperature fuel trims, the Lamda is supposed to kick in (goes closed loop) and start to adjust the injector solenoid timings, so more or less fuel is injected trying to get the perfect mixture for it's set parameters/emissions

NEVER MIND THAT CRAP FROM THE IDIOT ABOVE; did i miss understand you or was that for my benefit; i would never question a man of hands on experience such as yourself; i was just pointing out what i could see; I'am always fuckin humpty in the morning;

 

[DrFarkoff]

NEVER MIND THAT CRAP FROM THE IDIOT ABOVE; did i miss understand you or was that for my benefit; i would never question a man of hands on experience such as yourself; i was just pointing out what i could see; I'am always fuckin humpty in the morning;

Ah Begging one's Grumpy Pardon Sir! Not you!!

I was referring to the "AI bot" aka Botus who interjects:- useless, spurious, misleading, unconnected and incorrect information to a LOT if not all of it's interjections on this forum

 

[DrFarkoff]

View attachment 405261

Take this with a pinch of salt as usual - it sound very rich at at idle and with a closed throttle the AFR is maintained the stepper motor(s) position, fuel metering would be open loop and dictated by oil/ coolant and ambient air temp. By opening the throttle you are giving it a bit more air to the point that the AFR will ignite. My understanding is that the displayed reading is 'demand' not 'feedback. I would check that the stepper motors are doing what they are asked to do as a first step, not sure what the easy to do that would be, but I would start there.

You are not far out but the Stepper motors are sill used to "control" the idle speed in Open Loop

 

[Mistacat]

At a quick glance at the data the first thing that looked odd was, Throttle closed , Idle just over 1300 rpm yet the speed shows 318.8 Km/h and wheel speed sensors 4095.9 Km/h ???

 

[snelly]

Ah Begging one's Grumpy Pardon Sir! Not you!!

I was referring to the "AI bot" aka Botus who interjects:- useless, spurious, misleading, unconnected and incorrect information to a LOT if not all of it's interjections on this forum

Cheers D F ; humpty has been put in his fuckin box for the rest of the day;

 

[DrFarkoff]

At a quick glance at the data the first thing that looked odd was, Throttle closed , Idle just over 1300 rpm yet the speed shows 318.8 Km/h and wheel speed sensors 4095.9 Km/h ???

I noticed that too, but no idea why that would be I gave it a by ball and put it down to "calibration" "Max Values" ????

The second shot shows much more "sensible" data and went off that

Without DIagnostics the OP says that it needs throttle when cold

75000 on it and I thought most likely = Stepper motors ?

 

[Mistacat]

I did not know if the speed values were a glitch in the ecu , Probably worth resetting the adaptations or disconnecting the battery for 5 minutes as it costs nothing.
On the second set of values (hot engine) I thought the injector pulse width looked a bit long at 3 M/s I would have expected to see around 2,2 M/s under those conditions which would explain the rich mixture .
These are just my thoughts.

 

[Mistacat]

In retrospect I was probably a bit hasty on commenting about the injector pulse width without first measuring fuel system pressure

 

[matgriff]

As written above, disconnect the lambda sensors to remove from the equation, it will default to the basic "safe" open loop fuel map which will be fine to get going with. My mates RT was running really rich at idle and generally running crap. I used my Motoscan and diagnosed that the throttle position sensor was buggered, it was reading 0% at closed throttle, but then jumped to 40% or so as soon as you moved the throttle, and stuck at around 10-15% sometimes when closed again, which caused the injetcors to add what it thought was the correct amount of fuel to deal with a 40% throttle opening. I replaced the sensor and then could see that the new TPS went from 0-100% smoothly as the throttle was opened and closed. We re-connected the lambda sensors and it ran fine.

 

[Dugster]

Update:
After trying many of the recommendations from the collective, Thanks BTW, with little change, I took the TPS apart again, this time cleaned it using a graphite refill from a propelling pencil. Grasping at straws I suppose. It improved a bit, but still not right.
My next course of action was to rebalance throttle bodies as it was noticed by a good friend that altering tension on one of the cables improved the tick over. Previously I had sent the bodies away to be Cerakoted, rebuilt them and fitted with original components , the idle control valves were also painted to match the now black T.B's. The same good friend suggested swapping the idles valves over, I thought it was a waste of time as they are identical, tried it and started the bike . It was repaired, was it the control valves ? the TPS? or a poor connection? Not a bloody clue. It's fixed, that's all that matters. Once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[theoneandonly]

Update:
After trying many of the recommendations from the collective, Thanks BTW, with little change, I took the TPS apart again, this time cleaned it using a graphite refill from a propelling pencil. Grasping at straws I suppose. It improved a bit, but still not right.
My next course of action was to rebalance throttle bodies as it was noticed by a good friend that altering tension on one of the cables improved the tick over. Previously I had sent the bodies away to be Cerakoted, rebuilt them and fitted with original components , the idle control valves were also painted to match the now black T.B's. The same good friend suggested swapping the idles valves over, I thought it was a waste of time as they are identical, tried it and started the bike . It was repaired, was it the control valves ? the TPS? or a poor connection? Not a bloody clue. It's fixed, that's all that matters. Once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

but wouldn't it be nice to know what was wrong .....for next time , and the collective good?