YouTube Video (R1200GS Adv.)

[Deleted Member I]

Who is fighting? All I do personally know is that the German Federal Prosecutor ist still investigating the case. You might know that several BMW motorcycles were seized in August 2006 and in addidion obviously in February 2007. They were brought to an expert.

Who is fighting? It's the law. What I did was telling you about a fact that you didn't know about: BMW confirmed that these brakes in question do show sporadically faults. Which means that after a fault you go to the dealer and he dosn't find any fault, the fault dosn't show up. That was the case by the bike of Klaus-Georg, who died one year ago.

Did you know about the sporadically faults and that BMW Group does confirm that feature wiht the brakes?



I do believe that Klaus-Georg died because of the flawed brakes. Which means that lives can be saved when riders stop riding bikes that are equipped with power assisted integral-brakes, see?

At least they should know about the feature "sporadically faults", don't you think so? I provided that information to you. What you do is up to your own.

Nemezis

Then I got you wrong. You are just wasting bandwidth/bytes replaying an old tune.

Unlike the others I actually valued the information that you provided. But you have no passion about it which I find disappointing. Thought you were out to make sure all GS were off the road or at least for BMW to compensate all 1200 GS owners in a class action suit.

 

[NLS]

Ah, the Internet.

 

[nemezis]

Thought you were out to make sure all GS were off the road or at least for BMW to compensate all 1200 GS owners in a class action suit.

I don't know about your legal system, I do only know about the German law.

Here there is no such thing as a class action suit. And here there is no way to get more than your money back if you can prove at court that the brakes are faulty (you have to prove that yourself).

But threre is another thing. It's about the German Federal Criminal Prosecutor. He is in charge of the German government and does investigate the issue in criminal aspects, see?

In UK and USA things might be different. You might try other ways such as class action suits. But I cannot help you in this because I have no information about how to do that.

 

[nemezis]

Nice music, otherwise a pile of unreadable and unsubstantiated gobbledegoop.

On 26th of August 2006 a BMW R1200GS rider was seriously wounded in a horrible crash. He died in hospital hours later. The bike was seized and the braking system "Integral-ABS" was subject of the examination by experts. Three error codes were stored in the braking system. According to BMW Group in a letter to the expert this braking system does show sporadically errors .

Do you need some more information?

 

[Malcvtr]

Does this guy deserve all the criticism he's getting? Residual braking is a well-known problem with these servo brakes, isn't it? Plenty of people on this site have experienced it. "Nemezis" seems to be merely giving us information about what's happening about the matter in Germany. Isn't that what the forums are for - giving and sharing info? If you're not interested, don't read it. I can't see why he's getting such criticism. After all, we've only bought these bikes, it's not as if we're BMW shareholders...

Just my sixpennorth

 

[Schwarz Baron]

Can't imagine who posted the info on YouTube

Nice to hear from Alex again - it's been a while.

The thought had crossed my mind!

Nice bit of home movie editing tho'

 

[Decster]

I think we need more like Nemeziz to keep large faceless profit driven corporations on their toes.....

Too easy to dismiss him as a fruit cake. Believe the advertising or LWR/LWD all you like....ask honda about their PanEuro's right now

Look at the drop in quality we have constantly heard about in the recalls of 1200's gear boxes, final drives.....it is quite a long list.

Brakes 'might' be important on a motorbike so this 'just' might be an important issue.

He gets my vote to be a fly in the oitment of such corporations. If I ride a BMW it does not mean I trust them anymore than any other manufacturer of machinery and I am glad that people are out there trying to get them for whatever reason, which benefits the end user..

 

[Pukmeister]

I know that BMW know that there is a potential problem with these bikes if fitted with Servo brakes. They say as much in the extra page they supplied me to put into my owners manual along with a nice letter and an offer of a free brake check.

They state that repeated operation of the ABS pump using emergency braking force can lead to reduced battery voltage, resulting in eventual loss of servo pump with only residual braking. This has been proven by bikes on a test track by BMW themselves (by their own admittance). They also advise to avoid repeated use of brakes in emergency stopping power until sufficient riding is completed to recharge the battery. They also recommend the use of a trickle charger for bikes used infrequently.

I don't think I'll do a trackday on my GS and punish the brakes into eventual submission (forewarned is forearmed).

My road riding style avoids the use of brakes through anticipation, and when I need them its either gently to scrub off a little speed before corner entry, or maybe a one-off handfull in an emergency should some prat do something in my path that is unavoidable (hardly ever happens touch wood).

Not exactly going to drain my Hawker Odyssey battery in a hurry and lose me my Servos is it ???

 

[nemezis]

I know that BMW know that there is a potential problem with these bikes if fitted with Servo brakes. They say as much in the extra page they supplied me to put into my owners manual along with a nice letter and an offer of a free brake check.

I do know this manual and letter because I got it, too.

But there is really nothing written about sporadic faults with these brakes in question. I am talking about spordic faults like the error code 0×618C which results in residual brakes. In the case of Klaus-Georg B. the bike had this fault stored in the computer. But this fault didn't show up when the bike was examined. And BMW stated that this might be a sporadic fault which is just gone if you switch the engine off and on with the key.

If you have any questions to understand what a sporadic fault is and what the consequences are (for you as a rider and probaly legally) don't hesitate to ask again.

Nemezis

 

[Malcvtr]

My road riding style avoids the use of brakes through anticipation, and when I need them its either gently to scrub off a little speed before corner entry, or maybe a one-off handfull in an emergency should some prat do something in my path that is unavoidable (hardly ever happens touch wood).

Not exactly going to drain my Hawker Odyssey battery in a hurry and lose me my Servos is it ???

No

Given your riding style (which is, indeed very similar to my own), I guess you chose the extra cost and complication of servo-assisted ABS brakes for that very rare event when you would panic and lock up the brakes?

And I suppose, if I've understood him correctly, that Nemezis's point is that you can't rely on the servo-assisted brakes to operate in that 1-in-a-1000 situation.

 

[sycomoto]

well thats ok then

for years i've avoided abs as i was trained to break without locking the wheels. i bought my gsa without abs much to the salemans disbelief, now i feel justified in my decision

 

[HondaMan]

nemezis

when you say 'sporadic faults' does this mean actual mechanical faults with the braking system. Or 'sporadic fault codes', if its just fault codes then then surely these all have a meaning and the cause can be identified?

I went over a some rumble strips in my car whilst braking hard and momentarily lost braking. Before turning off I plugged my laptop in, the abs had thrown a fault code, 'immplaisible signal' or something. I wouldnt say it was a sporadic fault, just something fooled the computer.

I think there are some limitations of the ABS with servo on the BM's, loss of braking happened once in the car in 150,000 miles, used to happen regularly on my 1200 GS with servo assisted brakes. I would be interested to know if this happens on other bikes with ABS like VFRs, Pans, FJRs etc. Maybe its a limitation of only having two wheel speeds to compare, where as in a car you have 4

 

[nemezis]

when you say 'sporadic faults' does this mean actual mechanical faults with the braking system. Or 'sporadic fault codes', if its just fault codes then then surely these all have a meaning and the cause can be identified?

First of all, the term 'sporadic faults' was not invented by me or by anybody else. This term 'sporadic faults' is in the statement of the law department of BMW Group to the Criminal Prosecutor. They claim that this braking system does show 'sporadic faults'. I never said that - they did!

In that case they tried to explain why the diagnostic protocol of the seized BMW R1200GS Adv. of the dead rider Klaus-Georg showed the error code 0×618C (which means the brakes shifted to residual brakes), and when the bike was inspected by the expert the bike didn't show the fault and was not in the mode of residual brakes. The brakes worked just fine!

BMW Group said: This might be a 'sporadic fault' that would vanish by switching the engine off and on with the key. Just that easy!

BTW: If you consult BMW dealers for what reason ever with your brakes, the dealer does clean the faults, is doing a test-ride and if there is no error then loogged you get the bike back. Someone might imagine what I am talking about...

There is even a term called in German language "Schein-Fehlermeldung" which means that there are faults stored but there are no faults. Both term and 'concept' is from BMW, not from me or anybody else. I do not understand this concept, neither did the expert that was hired by the prosecutor.

Advice: Don't ride no bike that does shows 'sporadic faults' with the brakes and that does have the concept of "Schein-Fehlermeldung" implemented.


Nemezis

 

[nemezis]

There are a lot of faults that can happen with these brakes. Another fault is the fault "19 EMV" which does mark electromagnetic problems. This is not making fun from me, this is declared from BMW in this statement in original German language to an owner that suffered more than once from brake failures whith these brakes in question.

This statment from BMW with the concept of fault "19 EMV" was published by the owner in late summer 2005 after he was interrogated by the police in charge of the prosecutors office investigating.

Source: http://bmw-bremsen.blogspot.com/

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I`m with Sycomoto on this. My non servo/non ABS bike would seem the best choice to avoid any issues. Just a point on my brakes, they are by far the most powerful and responsive I have had with ANY bike.

On this servo problem, am I being too niave in thinking hat BM* are aware? Surely they couldn`t and wouldn`t be allowed to produce a bike with a known issue? If they were aware and is was proven to be an issue, they would have to have an immediate recall of all the bikes before the lawsuits hit the mat. Can you imagine what a hotshot Californian lawyer would do???

 

[Chris Terry]

I'm off to Halfords to get some hydraulic pipes, swaging tool & some brake fluid. I'll see if I can by pass the problem.
Maybe not

 

[minkyhead]

err mine failed ...while the throttle jammed itself on

bmw technitions diagnoses computer .......fault no longer present .... err now what
rejected bike never rode it again why would i want to ??
even after the replacement bike i never got a explination why it had happened ..they just replaced the wiring loom as a precaution
if it happened to you you would not be so matter of fact or dissmisive about it there have been more than a few postings on this forum about brake failure /residual ...braking

ijust tried a forum search for brake failure ...it returns

err 11 pages
not all direct failures but a lot of scary stories

mmm maby there is a problem [wakey wakey] .......

 

[Arthurwg]

He's back and he's right! Those brakes are nightmare and a catastrophe waiting to happen-- which it apparently did to the hapless ADV rider. I've had three brake failures on my 05 R1200GS, one at 85mph. But he is wrong about one thing: The 05's in the USA were sold ONLY with servo brakes; non-servo brakes were only offered later.

 

[Arthurwg]

What should happen? The servo equipped bikes should all be RECALLED by BMW, and non-servo brakes fitted. But don't hold your breath for that.

 

[nemezis]

err mine failed ...while the throttle jammed itself on

bmw technitions diagnoses computer .......fault no longer present .... err now what rejected bike never rode it again why would i want to ??

You are just describing the BMW Group concept of "sporadically faults" and "Schein-Fehlermeldungen" (German term which I explained). The standard situation is that riders do have problems with the power assisted Integral-Brakes . Then they visit the dealer but there the fault dosn't show up any more. The dealer is cleaning the faults, testing the bike for a short ride and if the fault dosn't occur again he's handing the bike over to the customer.

By riding a bike with power assisted Integral-Brakes it is important to know about the BMW Group concept of "sporadically faults" and so called "Schein-Fehlermeldungen".

The problem is that if you buy these brakes neither the dealer nor the manual does tell you about these concepts! Or - did anybody know about this before? Would you buy such brakes if you know about these issues?

Nemezis