GSwadd
Registered user
Hands up how many people have been saved pain or financial loss by the servo-assisted ABS brakes getting them out of a sticky situation?
buzz
Guest
I have,but i would not like to be on the bike if i needed it again and this fault happend,the only option would be to crash
,Bmw should sort this out as quickly as possible.
Tomm
Registered user
From reading this thread it seems that a problem is known to occur after repeated applications of brake under emergencey braking conditions.
The mechanics of the problem, as i understand, is that battery drain could occur leaving residual braking only available.
Also the risk can be heightened by leaving the bike standing over extended periods of time without keeping battery topped up using optimate.
This condition will throw up the said trouble code as braking is 'switched?' to residual, but of course after turning igintion off/on trouble code is then cleared. I guess this would be because after riding the battery would be topped up again before the next emergencey brake scenario was encountered?
My understanding is that this 'sporadic' fault is only at risk of appearing after certain conditions occur. It will not just happen. To be honest faults do not 'just happen'. Usually an event or sequence of events, known or unknown must occur.
I would agree that armed with this knowledge I would not ride a bike fitted with such a system hard on a track day, I would happily ride .. even hard in road conditions.
Basically, tradgedy as it is we do not know how the bike was being ridden before failure.
It would appear to me that there is a known sequence of events that can lead to this known fault code, and fault condition, that after further riding and of/on cycle of ignition will then clear codes.
I guess the only question i would ask is whether anyone knows how many applications of emergencey brake would drain battery enough to compromise system?
Either way ... I think usually after the second most people would want to pullover at side of road and just let the heart rate subside !?!!!
Just my thoughts on this.
The mechanics of the problem, as i understand, is that battery drain could occur leaving residual braking only available.
Also the risk can be heightened by leaving the bike standing over extended periods of time without keeping battery topped up using optimate.
This condition will throw up the said trouble code as braking is 'switched?' to residual, but of course after turning igintion off/on trouble code is then cleared. I guess this would be because after riding the battery would be topped up again before the next emergencey brake scenario was encountered?
My understanding is that this 'sporadic' fault is only at risk of appearing after certain conditions occur. It will not just happen. To be honest faults do not 'just happen'. Usually an event or sequence of events, known or unknown must occur.
I would agree that armed with this knowledge I would not ride a bike fitted with such a system hard on a track day, I would happily ride .. even hard in road conditions.
Basically, tradgedy as it is we do not know how the bike was being ridden before failure.
It would appear to me that there is a known sequence of events that can lead to this known fault code, and fault condition, that after further riding and of/on cycle of ignition will then clear codes.
I guess the only question i would ask is whether anyone knows how many applications of emergencey brake would drain battery enough to compromise system?
Either way ... I think usually after the second most people would want to pullover at side of road and just let the heart rate subside !?!!!
Just my thoughts on this.
Please explain why you think servo brakes can save pain or financial loss?
ABS I can understand. But why servo?
I've had too many bulbs blow to ever trust an electrical braking system.
nemezis
Guest
"But why power assistance" would fit beetter IMHO. Since even the new Integral-Brakes from Continental Automotive Systems are coming with a pump for activating the brakes of the rear wheel.
As everybody knows BMW dropped that misleading technology "power assistance"-gimmick in August 2006 due to consumers complaints, dealers complaints and the negative motorcycle press in USA, Australia and even the Times (London). Not to mention the 50 negative articles in Germany including TV-Shows!
Nemezis
NLS
Guest
Don't tell us that if the pump that activates the rear brake (when using the FRONT brake) fails, it is dangerous too?
I still use both front and rear myself (so I don't really care about the pump, I only see it as one more thing that assists anti-dive). I only use front-only, when I did use front-only with other bikes anyway.
I still use both front and rear myself (so I don't really care about the pump, I only see it as one more thing that assists anti-dive). I only use front-only, when I did use front-only with other bikes anyway.
Nemezis, why has your homepage Blog been deleted?
BTW, I applaud you for your input, clearly failed brakes are a potential life or death situation ...
I look forward to the outcome....any idea how long it may take, or is it more a question of 'how long is a piece of string'?
BTW, I applaud you for your input, clearly failed brakes are a potential life or death situation ...
I look forward to the outcome....any idea how long it may take, or is it more a question of 'how long is a piece of string'?
nemezis
Guest
Here it is!
Personally I do believe that there will be no outcome at all. No recall, no punishment, no nothing. Here, in Germany, the prosecutor is not independent. If the government says "drop the case" he will drop the case. And, huh, it's standard procedure that Germany is run by the industry, not by politicians. Indeed some politicians are working for the industry and - the other way, too. This is senational and the outcome is always the benefit for the industry.
Anyway I do believe that every owner of a Beemer with power assisted brakes should know about the BMW concept of "sporadical errors" and "Schein-Fehlermeldungen". It's a shame that nobody was informed when he bought his bike.
Nemezis
Tomm
Registered user
I know that BMW know that there is a potential problem with these bikes if fitted with Servo brakes. They say as much in the extra page they supplied me to put into my owners manual along with a nice letter and an offer of a free brake check.
They state that repeated operation of the ABS pump using emergency braking force can lead to reduced battery voltage, resulting in eventual loss of servo pump with only residual braking. This has been proven by bikes on a test track by BMW themselves (by their own admittance). They also advise to avoid repeated use of brakes in emergency stopping power until sufficient riding is completed to recharge the battery. They also recommend the use of a trickle charger for bikes used infrequently.
It sounds to me that this is a known issue and that owners are being notified of the risk
nemezis
Guest
It sounds to me that this is a known issue and that owners are being notified of the risk
The issue Pukmeister raised is a known issue and was fixed by a recall of 90.000 motorcycles with Integral-Brakes (note that there have been about 260.000 at that time). According to the German authorities the issue is a non-issue for the 90.000 units after they were recalled!
Which raises the question: Why do people raise issues here that are non-issues?
But I was talking about the issue of 'sporadic faults', there occurence is confirmed by the legal department of BMW Group. And they didn't explain what the various reasons for these 'sporadic faults' is. So they are just 'sporadic' and obviously they don't know why these brakes 'spora'dic faults'. I assume they don't fix the brakes for that reason. How can they fix somethin from what they don't know?
In addition the concept of "Schein-Fehlermeldungen" is not clarified until now. The expert that examined the reason Klaus-Georg died diden't unterstand the statment of BMW Group. Neither did I. In times of embedded systems to speack of "Schein-Fehlermeldungen" is just nuts!
It's a shame.
geek
Guest
i accept that there may be bikes out there with this fault, but isn't this fixed in the latest models?
I have an 07gs with abs, it is the non-servo assisted version, if I understand correctly. I recently rode an 06GSA that didn't have ABS.... it was terrible.
I have an 07gs with abs, it is the non-servo assisted version, if I understand correctly. I recently rode an 06GSA that didn't have ABS.... it was terrible.
nemezis
Guest
Integral-Brakes were 'fixed' in August 2006 with the introduction of the new Continental Automotive Integral-Brakes without power assistance. BMW developed this system due to the complaints of customers, dealers and the negative press.
But even this new system from Continental Automotive System is now under investigation, as I said before, by the German authority KBA (like VOSA in UK). There are faulty braking hose reported with this system. The investigation is still not closed.
That's correct. It's the Continental automotive System, not the FTE automotive system.
I do understand that there might be riders out there that do need ABS. My personal choice are reliable brakes, not unreliable brakes with the concept of 'sporadic faults', "Schein-Fehlermeldungen" and the famous "residual-brakes".
Man have choices. But to have a choice you need to be fully informed.
Nemezis
GSwadd
Registered user
Just put the servo-assisted bit in there as, from what I can see, non-assisted brakes were not an option in Australia until this year and really meant ABS. I know when I bought mine (09/06) servo-assist was all that was offered, even though it always had bad raps from the Australian Motorcycling Press. I would have preferred mine without servo-assist as I see no reason for it on a motorcycle and I'm guessing it was only added to hide the pulsing of the ABS activating at the lever? Having said all that mine have never let me down but I do find myself 'testing' them, from time to time, as I am riding.
JIm
Registered user
Ok, will residule braking stop the bike if you pull harder on the lever?-once you get over the shock of the servo not working?
I've stopped mine at low speeds with the ignition off but haven't tried it at road speeds.
The reason I ask is that no company would be able to sell a vehicle that relied on a NON failsafe braking system
Jim
I've stopped mine at low speeds with the ignition off but haven't tried it at road speeds.
The reason I ask is that no company would be able to sell a vehicle that relied on a NON failsafe braking system
Jim
nemezis
Guest
This are the 2-minutes in the German TV news on 07/09/2005 about the investigation of the german federal criminal prosecutor and the injured riders because of the integral-brakes (FTE automotive): Tagesschau.
---
As you already know there are technical problems with the Continental-Teves brakes, too. It's about a leaking braking hose connected to the pressure modulator. The German authorities are investigating the case since Summer 2007! Usually the company replaced the braking hose when the brakes failed. But anyway it was a "non issue" and they "never heard" of such instances. Just the way they handled the desaster with the power assisted brakes.
That changed some days ago. The German dealers are now informed about the safety issue and it's likely that a recall will happen some day. Obviously the authorities are not convinced that only replacing the hose does fix the problem permanently. And it does not help the other owners that might expect the brake failure some times later...
The US-Forum ADV-rider did protect their members to get this information. Now you have it. That's all what it is. Information.
---
As you already know there are technical problems with the Continental-Teves brakes, too. It's about a leaking braking hose connected to the pressure modulator. The German authorities are investigating the case since Summer 2007! Usually the company replaced the braking hose when the brakes failed. But anyway it was a "non issue" and they "never heard" of such instances. Just the way they handled the desaster with the power assisted brakes.
That changed some days ago. The German dealers are now informed about the safety issue and it's likely that a recall will happen some day. Obviously the authorities are not convinced that only replacing the hose does fix the problem permanently. And it does not help the other owners that might expect the brake failure some times later...
The US-Forum ADV-rider did protect their members to get this information. Now you have it. That's all what it is. Information.
Rhodie
Registered user
Nemezis
Thank you for bringing this to all our attention.
I see that the original video link you gave that the video has since been removed?
Also, do you have the ADV link.
I would be interested to read how they are dealing with this considerng the litigious US nature.
Thanks
Rhodie
Bangkok.
January 2006 GS
Thank you for bringing this to all our attention.
I see that the original video link you gave that the video has since been removed?
Also, do you have the ADV link.
I would be interested to read how they are dealing with this considerng the litigious US nature.
Thanks
Rhodie
Bangkok.
January 2006 GS
I clicked on the link and the video is still there 
Mind you, your German has to be pretty fluent to understand it 
Thanks again, Nemezis, for bringing this info to us. I know you get a lot of criticism from people who think you're making this up, or making too much of it, but there are others - like me - who are only too glad to have the information and to make up our own minds on the basis of it.
Well done, mate
Mind you, your German has to be pretty fluent to understand it Thanks again, Nemezis, for bringing this info to us. I know you get a lot of criticism from people who think you're making this up, or making too much of it, but there are others - like me - who are only too glad to have the information and to make up our own minds on the basis of it.
Well done, mate
Sledgehammer
Guest
nemezis
Guest
AFMB is a BMW Club for the french speaking community. They were involved in the enlightenment of their members in the case of the flawed servo-assisted brakes. They are now investigating the case of the leaking braking hose connected to the pressure-modulator of the bikes with Ingegral Brakes from Continental Teves.
ABS: fuites de lookheed ? - par popi le 04/11/2007 : 11:27
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@Sledgehammer
I won't upload it again. Summary: German rider crashed and died in August 2006 with his BMW R1200GS Adventure. It was equipped witht the flawed servo-assisted Integral-Brakes from FTE automotive. The bike was seized and examined by the expert hired by the prosecutor. The diagnostic protocol showed about 4 faults with the brakes. One fault was about shifting to residual brakes. Point is: The brakes worked perfectly when the expert tested the brakes...!
ABS: fuites de lookheed ? - par popi le 04/11/2007 : 11:27
---
@Sledgehammer
I won't upload it again. Summary: German rider crashed and died in August 2006 with his BMW R1200GS Adventure. It was equipped witht the flawed servo-assisted Integral-Brakes from FTE automotive. The bike was seized and examined by the expert hired by the prosecutor. The diagnostic protocol showed about 4 faults with the brakes. One fault was about shifting to residual brakes. Point is: The brakes worked perfectly when the expert tested the brakes...!
nemezis
Guest
recall?
defect of braking hose on bmw integral-abs continental teves confirmed.
german press:
http://www.autogazette.de/Undichte-Bremsleitungen-an-BMW-Motorraedern/artikel_803390_9.htm
german safety authority is still waiting for an answer by BMW.
defect of braking hose on bmw integral-abs continental teves confirmed.
german press:
http://www.autogazette.de/Undichte-Bremsleitungen-an-BMW-Motorraedern/artikel_803390_9.htm
german safety authority is still waiting for an answer by BMW.
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