YouTube Video (R1200GS Adv.)

[nemezis]

This is a picture of the ABS-pressure modulator from Continental Teves in an R-model. The mess is about the braking hoses directly connected to the pressure modulator (1). The braking hose is leaking braking fluid because of a tore. The reason of the tore is a bad design of the hose or/and a a fault during montage. The hose is pressed in the modulator by BMW mechanics in the plant in Berlin.

 

[nemezis]

my last information is confirmed by BMW today!

11/13/2007 12:08

 

[Catalyst]

Interesting and informative thread... Thanks for sharing this..

As I've just ordered my GSA, I'm obviously a little worried as no one wants problems with brakes.. If I've understood correctly then my bike won't have the servo issue, but could/will have an issue with the brake pipes, is this correct?

Has anybody raised this with the dealer network? I'm going to phone my dealer this morning... so if anyone reads this before 9am and has any info I'd appreciate it..

Thanks

Richard (Slightly worried now )

 

[nemezis]

As I've just ordered my GSA, I'm obviously a little worried as no one wants problems with brakes.. If I've understood correctly then my bike won't have the servo issue, but could/will have an issue with the brake pipes, is this correct?

1. Every BMW motorcycle equipped with BMW Motorrad Integral-ABS (Continental Teves) is affected. According to BMW only the R-models. They are sold since August 2006.

2. Which means: No Integral-ABS brakes (Continental Teves) - no isssue with the pipes!

3. BMW admits that there are so far 0,1% of all models showed a fault (=leaking brake fluid directly in the connection of the brake "pipes".)

According to BWM they don't know if the material or the assembly is faulty. In 2-3 weeks they want to decide if there is need to inform the dealers, that's what they said on Thursday last week.

Frankly: The issue is known since June 2007. It's documented in the files of the safty authorities. My guess is, that it dosn't count as a safety issue when you loose one braking circuit. That is my guess, that is no fact. As you already know residual brakes are legal and therfore having only the rear brake might be legal, too. I bet that I am right on my assumption!

After all - it is a sad story.


Edit: The most important report about the issue was pubilshed here at Indymedia (German language): Wieder Russisch Roulette bei BMW Motorrad?. It was then cited by at least two other magazines and newspapers and was the reason BMW confirmed the problems with the pipes directly connected to the ABS pressure modulator (Continental Teves).

 

[nemezis]

These are pictures of an affected R-model (already fixed), in this case a BMW R1200R. The defect of the pipes are in the screws. You don't see anything from the outside. BTW: The leaking brake fluid does ruin everything which it gets in contact. crank cases i.e. need to be replaced.

 

[nemezis]

news: defect is at the crimping of the pipe under the union nut, direct at the connection to the pressure modulator.

 

[Engineer]

Why anyone bothers with ABS on a BMW motorcycle defeats me - they seem to be nothing more than a constant source of worry, which kind of defeats the whole point of them in the first place - DOH!

 

[nemezis]

Why anyone bothers with ABS on a BMW motorcycle defeats me - they seem to be nothing more than a constant source of worry, which kind of defeats the whole point of them in the first place - DOH!

facts: 8 recalls for the power-assisted integral-brakes. 4 of them are dealing with the abs function: http://www.r1200gs.info/misc/recalls.html. the problem with the residual brakes was never fixed. the fix was the new continental teves system.

 

[nemezis]

Because we have new media reports in Germany there's additional information available.

The defect is at the crimping of the pipe. To check the issue the union nut needs to be opend. The cause of the defect (i.e. hairline crack, clumbled crimping) might be the strong vibrations of the two-cylinder Boxer. This is a picture how other manufacturers do prevent these failures on cars:

 

[nemezis]

the defect is at the crimping of the pipe. to check the issue the union nut needs to be opend. the reason of the defect (i.e. hairline crack, clumbled crimping) might be the vibrations of the machine (according to media reports).



TOP NEWS 11/18/2007 from German media motorzeitung.de

1. Actually BMW is developing modified brake pipes.
2. A recall of all affected machines is currently not confirmed!
3. German safety authority received a statement from BMW

 

[AndyW]

Anyone know of any update/news on the two issues being discussed here?

1) Servo failing to operate (low battery power?) - residual braking only
2) Faulty (?) unions at ABS Pressure Modulator

 

[andyclift]

I will add to this long thread as rather than being someone who is just relaying rumours and possibly misleading facts I have actually experienced a problem with servo brakes.

Last year, touring around Europe, my bike was regularly showing a `brake failure warning after starting'. This resulted in the bike going into residual braking mode. Initially stopping and restarting cleared the problem but it got worse and I drove around the Alps two up on a heavily loaded bike with no problems. The only difference was that I needed to use both front and rear levers instead of just the front and sonmewhat more pressure on the levers was required.

The problem that eventually led to the bike being taken to a dealer in Frankfurt was not the loss of braking but the fact that the servo assistance came back after some miles without me realising it. I then had to stop when traffic lights changed, pulled on both levers, bike stopped on the spot and wife nearly came over my head.

The cause of the problem was starting the bike with the front brake hard on from holding it while wife was climbing on and a sticking brake light switch. The computer thought the brakes were on so could not complete its tests and TO BE SAFE went into residual mode. When the switch eventually turned the brake lights off the test completed and the normal braking returned.

OK it was a failure of the system which would not happen if there were no servos but the system worked in that I was given a very clear warning by a red triangle on the display coupled with a flashing light that read "Brake Failure" and I still had useable brakes.

More recently I started the bike a few times and got the brake failure message but the brakes worked on servo preoperly. Stopping and restarting cleared the warning. This was due to a failing battery but again there was no real safety issues and I still had servo brakes.

I feel the comments surrounding the crash may be picking out sensational bits of data without knowing the full story. OK so checking the computer showed brake failure faults logged. I guess my bike would be the same but these faults were either corrected by the system or by me. At no time was I in a position of driving a dangerous bike but if I had an accident I am sure the fact that the bike's computer showed multiple brake faults would have made headlines.

I drive my bike hard and it has been in situations where the brakes are used constantly, such as Aline Passes and filtering through London traffic but have never had a problem with the battery losing enough power the cause a brake fault (even with a battery that would not hold enough charge overnight to start the bike).

The BMW manual suggests the battery capacity problem may come into play in siuations such as bikes used for constant training, for example, slow riding around cones without any normal riding in between. In the real world this does not happen and I would be astounded if constant track days were able to reproduce the error.

With older vehicles we did not have all the warnings and fault codes. If the brakes failed, and it could happen, the first we knew was when we hit something. Modern cars and bikes are very complex and we have warnings for everything. My car has 22 lights that need to go out when it is started, if one stays on and I drive anyway that's my fault, not the vehicles.

Years ago I had to stop a car from a quite high speed after the engine stopped. No engine, no servo and it was bloody hard to stop it. Anyone who has been towed in a car will know how bad the brakes are without a servo. The GS is not nearly so heart stopping if the servo fails and at least, as it's pump driven, it still works without the engine.

I would be quite happy to have a new GS without the complexity of the servo but have absolutely no worries about continuing with my current bike

 

[Engineer]

This is the problem when things get too complicated for their own good - electronics are great (it's my job after all) however it seems to me that electronics and technology tend to get hijacked by the marketing muppets and then misused to our detriment.

We don't need 20 gazillion warning lights for this that and the other - brakes should just work; no question; no excuses; no warnings and no need to check a whole host of stupidness before one rides away.

KEEP IT SIMPLE AND MAKE IT RELIABLE. If manufacturers can't achieve this, then stick to a system that we all know works - good quality; simple; separate front and rear; manual hydraulic brakes; which we can take responsibility for and learn to use properly.

 

[andyclift]

brakes should just work; no question; no excuses; no warnings and no need to check a whole host of stupidness before one rides away.

I agree - but the world's not prefect. A braking system is a complex mixture of metals, plastics, rubber, oil and electics. We expect them to survive a harsh environment where temperatures fluctuate over a wide range and they are subjected to salt, dirt and mechanical wear. They are also subject to material failures either through damage, stress, manufacturing faults that WILL from time to time get through the systems or fail to be properly maintained. These days we also expect to be able to stop our car/bike in all situations without needing massive hand or leg muscles.

Nobody has ever invented any system that does not fail eventually. Aircraft, for example, have multiple back up systems and designs that should ensure that when failure happens it happens safely. Pilots take a lot of care making visual checks before flights, have more telltales and warning lights than any road vehicle and they are subject to legal maintenance requirements and checks but they still fall out of the sky sometimes and kill hundreds in one incident.

How many of us can honestly say that we check brakes, lights, steering, oil, etc. as required by the vehicle maker. These checks are required as failures WILL happen. I have an MOD driving permit and am required to do all the checks daily or whenever I take over a vehicle - but nobody ever does.

I would rather the complexity of modern systems than go back to cable brakes that were as much use as dragging your feet - and they still failed but without a warning light to advise that only one strand of cable was left and the next time you braked it would be your last!!

I too worked with electonics for many years as part of complex industrial mechanical, hydraulic and electrical systems in the harsh environment of a steel works. Experience shows that electronics failures tend to happen early on, normally during commissioning but then they work forever. The long term faults were nearly 100% mechanical or hydraulic as they are subject to wear and stress and are not in a contolled environment. Selling replacements for worn or broken mechanical parts was good steady business but selling electonics spares was almost unheard of.

 

[MikeP]

The cause of the problem was starting the bike with the front brake hard on from holding it while wife was climbing on and a sticking brake light switch. The computer thought the brakes were on so could not complete its tests and TO BE SAFE went into residual mode. When the switch eventually turned the brake lights off the test completed and the normal braking returned.

So it was caused by "user error."

Good for you for having the honesty to admit that here.

There seem to be several possible causes for these "failures:"

Manufacturing error: Such as that stated (above) where there is an issue with the pipes. BMW Servo brakes are not the only systems prone to error. It would be nice to think that such important features such as brakes are devoid of such possibilities but the process involves humans, errors are inevitable.

Component failure: Any component can fail. It may be due to improper use (see "user error below) or manufacturing error (above).

User error: Not understanding or ignorance of the manufacturers instructions.


I have an 04 1150 GSA. It has BMW Evo-III, semi-linked Servo/ABS. The system is more complex than any brakes I've found fitted to any other bike I've owned, including earlier ABS equipped BMW's.

The bike has done 30,000 (mainly touring) miles.

In that time, the only issues I've had with the system were when the original battery was giving-up. There was insufficient juice on start-up, so the ABS was by-passed. A nice big red light warned me that I had no ABS and stopping after about ten minutes, re-starting, returned all to 'normal.'

I wasn't surprised by this, I wasn't concerned that the brakes would fail because I'd read the manual.

Likewise, having read the manual, I know that I have to allow the system to cycle through its various tests before pressing the starter or operating either brake lever. I don't find keeping to the instructions difficult.

I have to admit that I have been affected by all these failure stories. As a result, if you are ever following me, you may see my brake light come on momentarily a long way from the normal braking point. That's me just reassuring myself that everything is fine before I use the brakes properly! (If I'd never read any of these stories, I'd blithely do what I used to do and wait to touch the brakes when I need them).

I do wonder in the light of andyclift's post, whether those who have suffered fatal consequences, did something similar to him? Did they allow the system checks each time? Were they a "rear brake dragger?" (I've seen quite a few riders whose brake light is permanently on because their foot is on the brake pedal).

The trouble is of course that people rarely admit their errors, especially those that are seeking compensation. Then there are those that unfortunately are unable to be asked.

Now we have "fault code" storage and lack of fault codes is in itself being added to the mix.

It seems perfectly logical to me, that where a fault is caused by the user and then remedied either by the system or the user not repeating the error, that no fault is lodged.

Would owners be prepared to pay for the added workshop time caused by BMW searching for faults that no longer exist?

The Servo-ABS set-up is complex, some would say unnecessarily so and that's a debate that will rage forever. The 1200 models have added to this complexity by having a system that has in the past caused batteries to drain by brake levers touching handguards or owners pressing an indicator switch within a short time of switching off the ignition.

It just strikes me that it has become even more important for owners to understand their machine.

There's still no substitute for

 

[andyclift]

So it was caused by "user error."

Mike, the answer to that is Yes - and NO.

The problem was initiated by the need to hold the front brake on hard while my wife made the climb over the top box to get on the pillion. The actual fault was that the mechanical part of the brake light switch was sticking so having released the brake to start the bike (as per manual) the brake was OFF but the computer uses the brake light switch to check that condition so thought it was ON. The result was that it could not complete the brake check so went into residual mode for safety. As there is no indication, unless you stand behind the bike, that the brake light is on, you don't realise that is what is happening.

The important point though was having read the manual I knew what the warning was telling me and I knew that the bike's systems had been sensibly designed to provide a workable solution. I could then modify my driving knowing that I still had brakes but they may not be as powerful as I was used to. No problem and no safety issues.

I eventually realised what the problem was as, at night driving through Darnstadt, I noticed the reflection of the bike in a window and the rear light did not change when I braked. I assumed the brake light was not working but after removing the lens found it was on all the time. The switch was replaced the next day.

User error: Not understanding or ignorance of the manufacturers instructions.

I agree 100%. We live in an age where the standard is "if all else fails read the instructions" but often we don't even do that.

Back to my day job. Some years back I had to fly to India to investigate a fault on a machine and the fix took one minute doing the standard start up checks and turning on an air valve. The customer claimed they had tried everything but missed the fact that the pressure guage showed about 10 PSI (sorry about old units) and the manual clearly stated that before starting ensure a minimum 80 PSI pressure. That trip cost the very embarrassed customer over £6000 !! They told me that as they rarely turned the air off nobody bothered to check it was on.

It seems perfectly logical to me, that where a fault is caused by the user and then remedied either by the system or the user not repeating the error, that no fault is lodged.

Not so sure about this one apart from the fact that residual fault codes could be the main reason for this very long thread. Intermittant faults can be a bugger to fix as you can be sure that when you take the bike to the dealer the fault will not exhibit. When I had battery problems under warranty, the bike I took to the dealers had been on a charger overnight so was working 100% OK but the dealer was honest enough to confirm that the fault log showed an unusually high number of discharge/charge cycles so replaced it.

 

[Engineer]

I agree - but the world's not prefect. A braking system is a complex mixture of metals, plastics, rubber, oil and electics. We expect them to survive a harsh environment where temperatures fluctuate over a wide range and they are subjected to salt, dirt and mechanical wear. They are also subject to material failures either through damage, stress, manufacturing faults that WILL from time to time get through the systems or fail to be properly maintained. These days we also expect to be able to stop our car/bike in all situations without needing massive hand or leg muscles.

Nobody has ever invented any system that does not fail eventually. Aircraft, for example, have multiple back up systems and designs that should ensure that when failure happens it happens safely. Pilots take a lot of care making visual checks before flights, have more telltales and warning lights than any road vehicle and they are subject to legal maintenance requirements and checks but they still fall out of the sky sometimes and kill hundreds in one incident.

How many of us can honestly say that we check brakes, lights, steering, oil, etc. as required by the vehicle maker. These checks are required as failures WILL happen. I have an MOD driving permit and am required to do all the checks daily or whenever I take over a vehicle - but nobody ever does.

I would rather the complexity of modern systems than go back to cable brakes that were as much use as dragging your feet - and they still failed but without a warning light to advise that only one strand of cable was left and the next time you braked it would be your last!!

I too worked with electonics for many years as part of complex industrial mechanical, hydraulic and electrical systems in the harsh environment of a steel works. Experience shows that electronics failures tend to happen early on, normally during commissioning but then they work forever. The long term faults were nearly 100% mechanical or hydraulic as they are subject to wear and stress and are not in a contolled environment. Selling replacements for worn or broken mechanical parts was good steady business but selling electonics spares was almost unheard of.

Nothing will be ever be perfect; but I suspect the peak of brake reliability has been reached already with modern hydraulic braking systems.

Adding complex electronics, may under specific circumstances, increase braking efficiency; but the increased complexity is very likely to reduce overall reliability (more failure modes) - and that is simply not acceptable, no matter how many flashing warning lights are put on the dash in an attempt to compensate for the system's weaknesses.

 

[AndyW]

Thanks for those posts guys, interesting and informative but does anyone have some definitive info on the two apparent faults?

Anyone know of any update/news on the two issues being discussed here?

1) Servo failing to operate (low battery power?) - residual braking only
2) Faulty (?) unions at ABS Pressure Modulator

I notice from the RepRom that there are two versions of the ABS system as at 06/2006:

BMW Integral ABS Generation I and Generation II

...can anyone enlighten me as to how to identify one system against the other and of the changes made from Gen I to Gen II?

Thanks

(Moderators: maybe the title of this thread should be changed to reflect the discussion on brake failure and how the GS braking systems work?)

 

[nemezis]

MOTORRAD is a German motorcyle magazine and in addition the largest motorcycle magazine in all Europe.

MOTORRAD issue 01/2008 (12/21/2007) p. 50-51 deals in an interview with leaks on BMW brakes (Integral ABS II, Continental Teves) with the new BMW Motorrad spokesman Rudolf Probst:

The spokesperson concedes that in individual cases it had come to leaks in the area of connectors on the ABS pressure modulator. They recognized cracks in the brake lines (pipes). Currently the analyses are still going on (since July 2007!) and they work on solutions, that's what he says. A general recall for models from August 2006 with Continental Teves Integral ABS is currently not excluded, but not even confirmed. In mid-July, the German safety authority KBA (similar to VOSA in the UK) asked BMW for a statement on the subject. Because of the "complexity" of the case until now the investigation has not ended, according to the spokesman. And: To BMW there are no accidents involving personal injury known, this is in short the answer to the interview question from MOTORRAD whether it has come to "critical situations".


MOTORRAD is aware of the fact that the loss of large amounts of braking fluid does result in "critical situations". But even light cracks might result in the problem that air does mix with the fluid. BMW argues that one braking circuit does still work properly.


In the German "Boxer-Forum" there is a comment of one owner. He seems damned angry: "Did they have to wait how the problem developed because a recall is expensive?"

http://boxer-forum.de/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=41&topic_id=19377&mesg_id=19377&page=

 

[nemezis]

For those who understand German language it might be a benefit to get the original interview. Just visit http://afmb.fr and click on the links of the note published on 12/22/2007 : 03:51 pm