2020 KTM 1290 Superduke vs 2019 1250 GS-HP

Red Rick you obviously don't have a clue ! Even if the propaganda says it make 180 hp (at the crank) at 9500 rpm on the dyno it actually builds more power all the way to 10000rpm...where the rev limiter cuts in...hard !
I wish we would live closer to each other and you had a 1290SDR and I could spank you on my GS...:D
On the track with long straights and smooth pavement it would be a different story...but then compared to a S1000RR a 1290SDR is dog slow...I was talking about riding the 1290SDR vs 1250GS on real as in public roads where the pavement is often less than perfect the the turns tighter than on most tracks...Obviously you can't or are too lazy to read or too unexperienced too understand...Give it some time and it will come...;)
Oh well I made my point and I have learned something myself again...The power of propaganda and how people are impressed by numbers or write-ups by professional story tellers who get invited and wined and dined to write nice stories about their products...I'm just glad to have the chance of a test-ride and did not waste my money on a bike like the 1290SDR...because the specs are impressive...The results less though :D
 
Arsey I guess we won't go to Mexico because you are a little girl that is afraid of donkeys...Even if your avatar suggests that we both love cats...:beerjug:
Anyways when the weather is warm again and you are in S-F and the Suppenkuche is open call me a day or two ahead...If I'm off we drink a few beers and eat some decent food and we can ride up to Alices Restaurant...I'm fast 2-up as long as you sit on the back...:D
Even if I would like more you and Stick come by and we ride all the way to C.S.L. and then take the ferry ride the best road in the world (best as in most twisty) to Durango and through the Copper Canyon back to the land of the fee...Take the M-S so we won't have to wait too long...;)
 
Boxerlust said:
The times of the crankcase-breather problems with oil in the airbox/intake runners are long gone...That was true with the old 2-V twins or if you overfilled the first 4-V boxers more than 25 years ago...The current 1250 boxer is already good for 9000 rpm max like a 911GT3.All it needs added displacement like the Porsche has 4 mm more stroke which would translate to 1332 ccm and intake runners,valve sizes and cam lobes to flow additional air.Shift-Cam is perfect for this because it could come without the penalty of loss of torque in the low and mid range...:thumby:
If they wanted to go 10000 rpm to get even more top end hp I don't think it would be necessary for a R-GS or R-XR application but could be fun if they ever decide to bring another S-Boxer with Tele-lever :thumby:
But here their would be so much flex on the crankshaft and probably wear on the engine case that they would have to design an all new engine with a 3rd bearing in the center of the crankshaft like it is wasted on the low revving,low hp R18...;)
We will see what they will do as competition improves the breed and Ducati setting the bar higher with their 170 hp / 60K ilometers valve adjustment interval new Volkswagen/Ducati V-4 Mutistrada that looks unfortunately everything but sexy and sounds worse than my blender in the kitchen set on high speed...:D
A GS 1250 with Akra-EU3 slip-on sounds glorious in comparison...How times have changed !
Even a KTM 1290 has a very insipid exhaust note sounding more like a Cheshire cat than a Beast...;)
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Exactly... Not got a bloody clue.

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Dear Santa (BHT), please can we get this fucking deluded moron removed from the site? ��
 
I think I made a mistake to reference the GT3 flat 6. It is not even comparable to the BMW boxer. I used it as a ref of how much engineering has to go into making a flat 6 perform as it does in that car (if you can be bothered to go through the tech spec). To be honest, who would make an opposed engine nowadays? Porsche (obvs, it is the essence of the 911), Subaru (and that Toyota thingy, basically the same car bar the badges), Ferrari did, VW did, Volvo did, and others who I can't think of. It is widely used in private airplanes but in that design it is a low revving unit much like a truck engine. Don't know who else but it is not a mainstream engine design. A bit ineffective to make as well (same as V config) because you will have 2 cylinder banks, 2 cylinder heads etc. As knutk has pointed out, there is a limit to how effective the engine can be for the config and you have to deal with NVH (basically balancing the forces) in a twin that will cause fatigue in the operator.

What have we learned from the evolution of the flat engine or boxer? In order to survive and adapt to customer demand a lot of tech has to be engineered in to achieve that. Porsche has gone liquid cooled, so has BMW boxer. Next step would probably be to reduce the losses in the engine, bore coatings, pump losses, frictional losses, ancillaries power demand etc that needs to be improved (in can also do with being build with less cast iron). It is not impossible to have a high performance flat twin. They race these engine in Germany (see below). HP2 Sport with 160+ bhp but the engine is highly strung and needs a service and inspect after a race weekend.

Read here for your entertainment: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/r1100s-bikes-parts-sale/954536-fs-shreddrs-big-bore-hp2-sport.html

The boxer twin is an identity for BMW Motorrad. It was never designed as a high performance machine. The appeal is an easy to maintain, low revving unit that is reliable, low centre of gravity instils confidence and it was cheap to make and maintain back in the day being an aircooled unit. Today only the config is what it has in common with the original design. It is not an ideal track weapon either, I have many miles of track on the 1100S and you notice the engine affecting the tip in and and balance in a corner and out off because of the torque effect. Fun but not for competition. Yes I know, they raced the Boxercup series and the HP2 Sport in the endurance races. I actually know some of the guys who raced them.
 
Boxerlust. Can i ask how old you are ?
 
Boxerlust said:
less is often more...:thumb
Click to expand...

Go on. Give it a go. Say less.

You have an opinion. We've heard it. Many, many times.

Sane people disagree, but you bang on again and again and again.

Which is quicker, a 1250GS or a 1290 SDR? I don't give a fuck. I've got neither. What I do know is that for long distance riding, my 1200GS is better and for local riding my 790 Duke is better. The reasons why I think this only really matter to me, but if anyone wants to know I'm happy to explain.

For now though, try your "less is more" approach, BL and spare us all from your broken record.
 
bristolsaint said:
Go on. Give it a go. Say less.

You have an opinion. We've heard it. Many, many times.

Sane people disagree, but you bang on again and again and again.

Which is quicker, a 1250GS or a 1290 SDR? I don't give a fuck. I've got neither. What I do know is that for long distance riding, my 1200GS is better and for local riding my 790 Duke is better. The reasons why I think this only really matter to me, but if anyone wants to know I'm happy to explain.

For now though, try your "less is more" approach, BL and spare us all from your broken record.
Click to expand...

Agree he is one tiresome prick.
 
Tannemann,a few words about your misconceptions the boxer is not a high performance engine configuration.Nothing could be further from the truth.Look the current 1250 boxer is a super modern engine with shift-cam technology and a fuel injection system that even guys like Hilltop can't decipher it...It is tuned for TORQUE and not high end-hp though.The only thing BMW could do is add a bearing on the crank to make it more sturdy for more rpms to precent the crank from twisting at high loads like they did on the R18 for reaons of big pistons and long rods.
Porsche already build opposed-piston/flat 12 boxer engines in 1970 that made over 1000 hp.The boxers in the 911 make 525 hp from 3996 ccm which is the highest specific power from any naturally aspirated car engine I know.Ferrar had flat 12 Testarossa and Berlinetta Boxers even if some idiots argue they were flat V12 engines because the rods of the opposing pistons sat on the same crankpins.
The 1170 cc Boxer in the 2008 HP2-S is still the highest specific-hp aircooled 2 cylinder motor cycle engine ever made :thumby: I don't say BMW should do the same with the 1250 shift-cam and tune it to put the V-2 Panigales to shame making more than 200 hp with the big hole on the bottom and middle but 160-170 hp and 150 nm TORQUE would be more than feasible and fun :thumby: And if in the end the M1300GS gets 155hp/nm I would be happy with it,too !
And yes the R1100S was fun on track or road but it was slow and vibey and the cylinder sticking out left and right creating drag or dragging in turns made it not the perfect engine for the track...The 1250 boxer in the GS will only drag when you already crashed and a new R 1300 S would still be fun...A practical sport-bike with a boxer engine would be a welcomed addition and sell better than the R18 for sure...:thumb2
 
:popcorn loving the upset and carnage BL causes , magical .......:beer: Sit back relax and see all getting hot and bothered , forum classic.
..............
 
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Stick , I aim to please...;)
What I don't understand though is the lack of enthusiasm for all things BMW and the misconception about Boxers or riding in general in a BMW-GS enthusiast forum ?
As all the GS will ever see is tarmac for 90% of its riders 90% of the time and how well they ride in any situation except for the track where some top=end hp is missing and weight / wind restitance reminds you of a barndoor.
Oh well someone has to hold the flag up and tell BMW what we need in order to keep the 1290's and M-S V4 behind when the road turns straight...:D
No orange or red skirt for me...as I prefer black Leder-Hosen...:aidan
Have a Merry Christmas , brother as next year will be interesting in the U.S. & U.K. ! The election is not over but hopefully the E.U. will be soon...Freedom and Power to the people...:beerjug:
 
Boxerlust said:
Tannemann,a few words about your misconceptions the boxer is not a high performance engine configuration........
Click to expand...

You are confusing technology with engine performance. The specific output for the 1250 is only 108 hp/l displacement. Don't for one moment think that any car engine can be compared to the boxer twin. The only thing in common with the engines you mentioned is Otto 4 stroke and the flat engine config. Nothing else.

Boxerlust said:
And yes the R1100S was fun on track or road but it was slow and vibey and the cylinder sticking out left and right creating drag or dragging in turns made it not the perfect engine for the track...The 1250 boxer in the GS will only drag when you already crashed ..
Click to expand...

Erm, not true. It was fast enough to trouble 1000cc bikes on a tight circuit, did not matter if it touched down or not. As for the GSA with everything set to its highest and stiffest, on track, if you weren't scraping everywhere you were not going fast enough. Pegs grinded to a chamfer, crash bars grinded, and centre stand had to be repainted. All that before losing the rear end being a bit enthusiastic with the throttle.

Happy days that was, I still have the 11S and that GSA sold to a member on here who made the news for crashing a replica Spitfire. Only to later die in another air accident. I still think about the bugger from time to time.
 
I have a 1250GS with the sports-suspension option which is the shocks and T-L arm from the ADV.I never had it on the track and the pegs will start to touch at 52 degrees according to the Nav 6...The valve covers won't drag unless you crash or weigh in at 300 lbs...;) Maybe I take it on the track for a few sessions next year when/if the M9RR's become available to see what it can do...As for the R1100S it was fun to ride on the road and until today probably the best handling street bike BMW ever produced.No matter the turns slow or fast or how bad the pavement...It just railed ! But on the track you were hopelessly outgunned as soon as the straights came you were toast.Any CBR600 of it's day flew by like you were standing still...very frustrating as also the vibration above 4500 rpm.Like I told my buddies in the days when the R1200S came out.On the R1100S you shift up at 4500 rpm , on the R1200S you shift down at 4500 rpm.Despite the aditional 25 hp and 25 Kilos less the R1100S was a better bike.More versatile,better handling,you did not have to keep it between 6-8000rpm to go forward.And the R1100S still looks stunning to this day...:thumby: I actually rode one yesterday but time has moved on as the 1250GS is a much better bike ! But still it is a GS and everyone has one and not everybody likes the upright seating position.The RS is no alternative because it does not have enough ground clearance and no Telelever.
It would be so nice if BMW would make a R1300S with 160 hp,220 kilo and Telelever - A fun and characterful twin that is practical and fun for the occasional trackday like the R1100S was in it's day...:thumby:
Boxercup 2.0 would be fun to watch to as the opening act for MotoGP or WSBK !
Have a good Christmas !
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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