BMW to drop servos

[JohnC]

Like Engineer, I'm less than convinced by the ABS; servos should not be necessary as most other manufacturers offer two (or one) finger braking without servos. I don't think ABS will ever develop to the stage where it will always brake better than a rider BUT:-
It already beats even expert riders when the road surface varies over the distance braked as a human can't adjust the level of braking to match the grip available. In the wet ABS beats all but the most brave and expert rider as most are afraid to apply maximum braking and lock-up the front. I can't give a link to these tests but I have seen them and I have also been told the same by various police class 1 riders (they have run their own tests). The problem is that on a good dry road many riders can beat the stopping distance of ABS and the GS ABS can easily get fooled into being activated when it's not needed (e.g. rumble strips, bumps when braking etc).
So I want ABS in the rain, on greasy roads, fully loaded but not on a good dry road. I guess it's a compromise and you make your own choices.

Let's not forget that ABS is almost standard on cars and it's well accepted that it increases braking distances in some cases but decreases it in others. However the main reason for its acceptance on cars is the ability it gives to steer while using maximum braking and this might not be the case on a bike. Yes, you might be able to use maximum braking but there's only so much grip available and swerving as well might well overload the grip available and lead to the front letting go.

So I can't decide if its best to have ABS or not

You can switch it off by the way

I will consider it when all the problems have been sorted out AND when there are no drawbacks AND when it can be clearly demonstrated that it is always more effective than 'normal' brakes.

All the problems? Please expand. OK I believe ABS may never have the stopping 'potential' of normal brakes under ideal conditions with an expert rider at the helm. But when are conditions ideal in the UK, rarely I'd say, and I'd say I'm far from expert The GS isnt a sports bike so I'll happily sacrifice ultimate on the limit, straight line, dry road performance for the ability to stop much quicker (safer?) in conditions I regularly experience in every day use

 

[JohnC]

BM have had ABS on bikes for years now (20 years?). They may not be perfect (what is?) but it is pretty well sorted. The servos are a more recent introduction and have issues and are obviously soon to depart anyway. IIRC the ABS is switchable on the GS so there is the opportunity for the best of both worlds.

I know its an area debated long and hard in the past but my view is still that, however good I am at braking in controlled dry conditions, I reckon that ABS is going to be a godsend in the "Oh s**t" panic braking moment especially as I may not be able to choose the road surface conditions. Isn't there some stat out there that in many accidents the rider did not brake as hard as he could have done for fear of locking up?

Paul

Exactly my feelings, they possibly dont brake as hard because they fear a front end wash out on our smeg covered UK roads.

 

[ktmmark]

It's a big bikers favorit around me (matlock bath ) you should see the skid marks @ some of the crossroads unfortunatly one not so long ago was fatal .A car driver just came straight out in front of him nr the knockerdown if anyone has heard of it .I think i have more of a chance of an idiot pulling out on me than the ABS failing .

 

[Fanum]

Some people have their heads so firmly wedged up their arses they look like a mobius loop


I've got ABS/Servo on my03 built 04 registered Adv, and I know for a certain that it's saved me from a nasty spill 2 up fully laden......

I've had servo failures, abs failures and ridden on residual braking......in fact, on Friday on Achill, I had to push the bogged down bike over onto the panniers to spin it round so that I could ride it out of the bog on the failed hill climb....I started the bike but had zero abs/servo function....not surprising as the switches were totally full of peat and crap.....I tested them on the way down and I can say for sure that it is totally possible to lock up front and rear on the bike should you want to, once you've got failed ABS/Servo.

I rode from the mountain all the way to the other side of the island, up and down some pretty severe cliff roads and hills, with residual breaking....I'd told Jochen that they'd failed as he was back marker leaving the car park on the mountain, and only Dan (Dellis) knew there was anything up with the bike when he asked about why my brake lights had been permanently on during that ride section.

I cleaned out the contacts and sorted the system out in the car park and it went back to normal.....

I can fully appreciate the trouser filing moment that suddenly finding no servo must bring, but if you can get your head round it, it's not as bad as some make out......

Having said that, once I'd sorted the system out I was truly glad to know it was back in full action for the ride home in pouring rain, well over the weight limit two up across Ireland and North Wales......it's a very forgiving and confidence inspiring system IMO, and even having had failures, I'd STILL buy another ABS/Servo GS.

Right, story told, now I'll have a pop

I will consider it when all the problems have been sorted out AND when there are no drawbacks AND when it can be clearly demonstrated that it is always more effective than 'normal' brakes.

You twit...show me ONE System on ANY bike that has never failed, that has been totally ironed out...if you're never going to consider any vehicle with a system that's NEVER failed you'll never leave your bed again

Experience it first, ride the thing, see what happens when it fails and enjoy the benefits it brings whilst accepting and being prepared for the exceptionally rare failures that go with it.

1150 without ABS and servos. Sorted

I nearly quoted that at Whatton when he was sliding along the road after having locked up his front on sheep shit on the road on Saturday.

The two bikes that had ABS and servos managed to stop quite comfortably on the same road, avoiding the piss-taking small Irish dog meandering down the lane.

Maybe he should have been further back, maybe he shouldn't have admired a view, I really don't know, but I don't think Civil or I had at any stage thought 'oops he rides a bit close' or anything similar.....it was a classic unforeseen sphincter moment that may well have been different if he'd had ABS.



I reckon I have a pretty well balance view, based on direct experience....I like my ABS/Servo/linked system, it's done me way more good than harm, I know I can ride with it (off and on road) in residual mode and I also know I would have been in at least one major accident if I didn't have it...

So there

 

[Marty Hill]

Fanum,

Good thought on him never leaving his bed. Of course the house could get hit by lightning.

 

[Engineer]

The system currently used may be good but it still needs refinement - BMW obviously believe this too, otherwise they would not be replacing it with a new system - they obviously believe that they can improve the system - why bother otherwise?


So... when I believe that ABS brakes have been developed to the point where they are closer to being perfect I will buy into it, but until then I will choose old fashioned normal brakes. Just because I am not yet convinced does not make me a twit.

 

[bonox]

are some of you completely missing the fact that servos and ABS are not inter changable terms. Having either one does not imply the other is along for the ride. Nor does the fact that your GS with servos doesn't behave differently to a 'normal' bike when the abs is turned off.

power booster - citroen's with power brakes but no abs
Power booster - most modern cars with vacuum boosters with or withou abs.
abs - honda/yamaha systems or bmw's R12s or F model abs systems

 

[ktmmark]

The system currently used may be good but it still needs refinement - BMW obviously believe this too, otherwise they would not be replacing it with a new system - they obviously believe that they can improve the system - why bother otherwise?


More like people have winged so much bmw think they will never be happy with so called complicated servo brakes .

 

[Paul Wakefield]

The system currently used may be good but it still needs refinement - BMW obviously believe this too, otherwise they would not be replacing it with a new system - they obviously believe that they can improve the system - why bother otherwise?


So... when I believe that ABS brakes have been developed to the point where they are closer to being perfect I will buy into it, but until then I will choose old fashioned normal brakes. Just because I am not yet convinced does not make me a twit.

The reason BM are changing the system is because of the servos not ABS. BM has had ABS for years and years before servos. Show me a system that can not be improved - seems to smack of there always being something better around the corner (always a good argument I found for persuading myself I didn't need a new computer )

Paul

 

[Engineer]

The system currently used may be good but it still needs refinement - BMW obviously believe this too, otherwise they would not be replacing it with a new system - they obviously believe that they can improve the system - why bother otherwise?


More like people have winged so much bmw think they will never be happy with so called complicated servo brakes .

Exactly they have been listening to their customers and are trying to keep them happy - always worth considering when trying to sell stuff! All the negative feedback about the servos has obviously been taken into consideration when developing this new system - which hopefully will turn out to be better.

 

[Engineer]

The reason BM are changing the system is because of the servos not ABS. BM has had ABS for years and years before servos. Show me a system that can not be improved - seems to smack of there always being something better around the corner (always a good argument I found for persuading myself I didn't need a new computer )

Paul

Yep - I'm not an early adoptor either! - Glad some people are though cos they help speed up the development process - early adopters tend to be risk takers - hmmmmm.... perhaps that's why they need ABS and/or Servos in the first place ;-)

 

[NorthernBoy]

At least one comparison test has proved that this is ONLY true on a nice smooth asphalt runway where the tests are run.
The test at a tyre manufacturers test track proved conclusively that on a rough surface - in this case ribs placed across the direction of travel - braking was quicker with ABS.

I am not sure if that is always true. I had it kick in on a bumpy bit of tarmac on Lee Road in South London yesterday morning. A bit of road I know well. I was braking moderately hard to a stop (not an emergency, just how I like to ride), on a dry road, and the ABS came on, taking away most of my braking effort.

I often pop a wheelie oover London Bridge on the way to work, too. A few times, after the front is back firmly on the ground, the brakes just do not respond, beofre coming on strong a few yards later. The first time it happened, it was not a pleasant surprise.

This is not a monster wheelie either. Just the front coming off the ground a bit under hard acceleration (the only open bit of tarmac I see between my house and office).

 

[The Nutter]

Gotta say, I've had no trouble from my brakes once I'd got use to them. Scared the sh*t out of my brother though. I'd got so used to the servo'd brakes that when I had a quick blast on his nearly new Kwaker KLE500 the other day, I grabbed a handful of front brake and nearly hit a brick wall. It just felt like there was no brake at all. I squeezed and I squeezed and it just stopped in time.

Conventional brakes? Pah! You can keep 'em.

 

[Engineer]

Gotta say, I've had no trouble from my brakes once I'd got use to them. Scared the sh*t out of my brother though. I'd got so used to the servo'd brakes that when I had a quick blast on his nearly new Kwaker KLE500 the other day, I grabbed a handful of front brake and nearly hit a brick wall. It just felt like there was no brake at all. I squeezed and I squeezed and it just stopped in time.

Conventional brakes? Pah! You can keep 'em.

See how dangerous it is to rely too much on technology - but the funny old underbraked KLE500 is hardly a good comparison - try a 1200GS with normal Brembos or maybe a Ducati - it's a different world altogether.

 

[JohnC]

Did you have a GS with a servo Engineer? Not a snide dig just wondering.

 

[Engineer]

Did you have a GS with a servo Engineer? Not a snide dig just wondering.

Nope - but have ridden two 1200GS's with servo brakes - I don't like the relatively grabby response and the lack of feel compared to normal brakes - also at the time I was deciding to buy my bike, there were lots of people reporting a range of various issues with these brakes - so I decided to go for the non servo/abs option.

A mate has the servo/abs brakes and he likes them - it's just that I think they need developing a bit more before I would be happy to buy a bike with this system - the new system announced recently may be better, will have to wait and see.

 

[JohnC]

Cheers

 

[birdseye]

Looks as if BMW arent dropping servos , just changing the way they are used to back brake only. http://www.gelandestrasse.com/bmw/bmwabsasc.pdf

 

[JayGee]

Looks as if BMW arent dropping servos , just changing the way they are used to back brake only. http://www.gelandestrasse.com/bmw/bmwabsasc.pdf

The rear thingy is a pump not a servo, it's used to get pressure in the rear barke so that it can be linked to the front. i agree it sounds like a servo in all but name but at least the system is designed to fail safe with the same braking under failure but maybe without the linking.

 

[birdseye]

It does sound as if it will fail a bit safer - the front brake is totally non assisted so all you lose if the pump / servo fails is the linked back brake.

I still wonder - the reason for the original servo was that simple mechanical abs systems cant restore the pressure quick enough so on loose ground you get longer periods when the brakes arent operating fully. The servo speeded things up. So whats happening with the new system? Are the brakes less good on loose ground? I dont know.