Fork Stanchion Issue... some perspective?

I think the geometry makes some angle change at the top of the stanchions unavoidable - see this, which shows the principle, but is not necessarily a realistic representation of the actual change in angle on today's GS design.

Televermovie.gif


I would say there are three ways in which the crimps could come under pressure.

The first is longitudinal. However, I find it hard to believe that the simple tromboning of the telescopic parts would be able to exert sufficient longitudinal pushing or pulling to put pressure on the crimps.

The second is where hard braking would cause the lower slider to try to rotate around the ball joint on the suspension arm which carries the damper, and this movement would be transmitted to the top of the stanchion, and opposed by the joint links in the top yoke. In this case the pressure on the joint would be exerted perpendicular to the direction of the stanchion, and I would think the joint link is fairly well designed to resist this. It also puts pressure on the crimped section, but not, IMO, in a direction which could easily distort and loosen it, though it is definitely a possibility.

A similar rotation effect, possibly of higher magnitude than braking, could be caused by an impact high up on the front of the wheel, but I think this is more in the realms of a crash impact than normal use, in which case I think all bets are off anyway.

This leaves the third form of motion where the angle of the stanchion with respect to the yoke changes due to the geometry of the suspension changing as the suspension arm moves up and down. The ball joint attachment to the forks moves through an arc which has the effect of pushing and pulling on the forks which slightly changes the angle at the point where they attach to the yoke.

The pressure from this angular movement at the top of the stanchion tends to tilt the inner part of the joint link with respect to the outer, and there is a very limited amount of movement available. If this movement is fully used up in extreme suspension deflections, then it could lock the top mount, meaning that any further change of angle can only be accommodated by flexing in the stanchion/slider assembly. In my opinion this sort of angular flexing is the most likely sort of stress to do damage to the crimps by rocking the joint back and forth and gradually deforming the top of the stanchion.

Fred

I agree with almost all of that and it all seems to make sense - the only bit I am struggling with is being able to quantify any angle change of the slider w.r.t. the bush, that bush doesn’t see to have much compliance at all. I have stared at that animation long and hard but I have yet to be convinced that on a real bike there is any significant change at all - I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and do some measurements on my bike :)

The resonant thing I found quite interesting, one could imagine a horizontal ‘thump’ on front wheel sending a shock wave up the tubes and done repeatedly I found imagine it stressing the crimped section. I have seen damage to surface mount capacitors on printed circuit boards suffering fractures as a result of a shock wave passing along the board due to break out or HALT testing.
 
Why did the earlier telelever designs had a ball joint at the top fork clamp and no such issues and why did BMW not use the duolever as that design will cope better with bigger suspension movement and not affecting the steering? Using the forks as a rigid connection between top yoke and telelever wish bone is a bit daft if big suspension movement is to be expected. There can be only one outcome when the crimp at the top of the fork mount is continuously experiencing forward to aft movement when going through the range of suspension compression and extension. The same technique you would use to get a fence post out of the ground. In short, on a telelever the wheel axle moves through an arc therefore the connection of the fork to either top or lower attachments needs to be able to swivel or give to the fork movement without stressing the fork.

Suspension technology has moved on massively and the telelever or duolever are no longer needed. In which case we can have a GS that doesn't weigh a 1/4 of a ton using a proven design for all conditions. Going off road riding is fine on a GS but it is hampered by the weight and suspension. On road the weight of the thing is its single biggest downfall apart from being challenged in the hp department.
 
The Telever/paralever is relatively simple compared to the other designs, and it works especially well for two-up, heavily loaded work - as a result the GS shrugs of pillions to the point where I hardly notice that Karen is there at all :)
 
By blaming some mysterious "resonance" I suspect BMW is just using a bit of disinformation to mask the fact that they don't know, or more likely don't want to admit, what is really causing the problem. Resonance is a specific condition whereby a part or assembly will preferentially vibrate at its resonant frequency, but to do so it must firstly be triggered by some suitable external force, and secondly must be free to vibrate at that frequency, in this case to the extent that it can cause damage. Of course I believe that external forces are causing the damage, but I very much doubt that this is through triggering some uncontrolled resonance, and if movement of the suspension was properly controlled by design, then it should not be susceptible to resonance effects in the first place, so this is hardly a valid excuse.

Different environment, but theory and outcome is the same. Material failure! http://www.cranemaster.com/applications/resonance-avoidance/ take a look at the video

Working as a Chief Engineer (military and civilian) for 33 years, I have, and continue to see this type of failure. And yes, some have resulted in fatality.

It seams to me you really need to move on to another bike if you are not feeling safe with your GS.
 
I did the frequency and vibration analysis on helicopters and resonance was one of the lessons. Ever seen a helicopter self destruct because of resonance? Let me search for that test for ground resonance............

 
The Telever/paralever is relatively simple compared to the other designs, and it works especially well for two-up, heavily loaded work - as a result the GS shrugs of pillions to the point where I hardly notice that Karen is there at all :)

Please explain how it is simpler than other designs. Have you ever toured 2 up on any other bikes not fitted with telelever like the system you find on conventional electronic suspension called anti-dive?
 
I did the frequency and vibration analysis on helicopters and resonance was one of the lessons. Ever seen a helicopter self destruct because of resonance? Let me search for that test for ground resonance............


I was stationed on the Falkland Islands in 1987 when a Chinook went down killing 3 crew. Very sad event. Never felt safe on one again.
 
The Telever/paralever is relatively simple compared to the other designs, and it works especially well for two-up, heavily loaded work - as a result the GS shrugs of pillions to the point where I hardly notice that Karen is there at all :)

I find the same, it is the best bike I have had for minimising the effects of pillion and luggage, better even than the Triumph Trophy I once owned - and it is one of the big reasons for me buying the GS, well that and the fact that it is versatile enough to also be great fun to ride solo.
 
Different environment, but theory and outcome is the same. Material failure! http://www.cranemaster.com/applications/resonance-avoidance/ take a look at the video

Working as a Chief Engineer (military and civilian) for 33 years, I have, and continue to see this type of failure. And yes, some have resulted in fatality.

It seams to me you really need to move on to another bike if you are not feeling safe with your GS.

I'm not doubting that out of control resonance effects can be very destructive, for example the famous Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse. I'm just not convinced that resonance effects are causing the damage to the crimps on the GS, but if so, then it is a major design fail.

Don't worry - I feel perfectly safe on my GS and won't be getting rid anytime soon! My interest in this is just natural curiosity to understand what is happening and why.
 
Why did the earlier telelever designs had a ball joint at the top fork clamp and no such issues and why did BMW not use the duolever as that design will cope better with bigger suspension movement and not affecting the steering? Using the forks as a rigid connection between top yoke and telelever wish bone is a bit daft if big suspension movement is to be expected. There can be only one outcome when the crimp at the top of the fork mount is continuously experiencing forward to aft movement when going through the range of suspension compression and extension. The same technique you would use to get a fence post out of the ground. In short, on a telelever the wheel axle moves through an arc therefore the connection of the fork to either top or lower attachments needs to be able to swivel or give to the fork movement without stressing the fork.

Suspension technology has moved on massively and the telelever or duolever are no longer needed. In which case we can have a GS that doesn't weigh a 1/4 of a ton using a proven design for all conditions. Going off road riding is fine on a GS but it is hampered by the weight and suspension. On road the weight of the thing is its single biggest downfall apart from being challenged in the hp department.

I like the removing fence post analogy - very apt I think!

I'm not convinced by anti-dive on telescopic forks. As far as I understand it, the electronic suspensions which do this use rapid stiffening up of the damping to resist dive under braking. This is all very well, but presumably leaves you with a lack of compliance to absorb bumps while in anti-dive mode, which I can't help but feel could be unsettling on the bike if braking hard on poor surfaces. I therefore feel that this is a bit of a compromise compared with designs like Telelever and Duolever which give anti-dive naturally through their geometry, without artificial meddling with the damping settings, and so can give the right level of damping for road conditions at all times, even under braking.
 
From Wikipedia - Peening is the process of working a metal's surface to improve its material properties, usually by mechanical means, such as hammer blows, by blasting with shot (shot peening) or blasts of light beams with laser peening. Peening is normally a cold work process (laser peening being a notable exception[citation needed]). It tends to expand the surface of the cold metal, thereby inducing compressive stresses or relieving tensile stresses already present. Peening can also encourage strain hardening of the surface metal.
Nothing to do with mechanical locking - or do you know something different ?

Well clearly you’ve never worked in the engineering trade. We often used to peen lock, i.e. a hammer blow using a punch to lock fasteners. Some may call it crimping, I call it peening from experience.

Now bore off and see what else Wikipedia has that doesn’t reflect the real world.


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BMW certainly missed a trick when they neglected to ask a foreign Internet forum to design their suspension for the LC in the first place. To then not ask for advice here as to how they should fix an issue before blindly going ahead with designing and implementing a solution themselves is simply mind boggling. I'm gonna take my free recently-fitted OEM collars off tomorrow and wait for the improved UKGSer fix. That'll teach them - eat your heart out BMW! ;)
 
Well clearly you’ve never worked in the engineering trade. We often used to peen lock, i.e. a hammer blow using a punch to lock fasteners. Some may call it crimping, I call it peening from experience.

Now bore off and see what else Wikipedia has that doesn’t reflect the real world.


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No need to be a dick about it. I did say did you know something diffferent - thanks for the extra info. And it wasn’t just Wikipedia that said that - most of the ‘real’ engineering sources said the same. So Merry Christmas you tosser.
 
No need to be a dick about it. I did say did you know something diffferent - thanks for the extra info. And it wasn’t just Wikipedia that said that - most of the ‘real’ engineering sources said the same. So Merry Christmas you tosser.

Really, up yours tosser


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I find the same, it is the best bike I have had for minimising the effects of pillion and luggage, better even than the Triumph Trophy I once owned - and it is one of the big reasons for me buying the GS, well that and the fact that it is versatile enough to also be great fun to ride solo.

Exactly the reasons I am now own my 4th GS probably my 5th in April.
 
Time for Christmas so taking a break :)

If anyone one is bored and has the mathematical and mechanical skill in statics please can they calculate the angular displacement at the compliance bush (if any) and post the geometrical solution here :)
 
BMW certainly missed a trick when they neglected to ask a foreign Internet forum to design their suspension for the LC in the first place.

Well BMW did miss a trick when they re-designed this suspension - and a very expensive miss it has turned out to be!
 


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