Fork Stanchion Issue... some perspective?

I like the removing fence post analogy - very apt I think!

I'm not convinced by anti-dive on telescopic forks. I therefore feel that this is a bit of a compromise compared with designs like Telelever and Duolever which give anti-dive naturally through their geometry, without artificial meddling with the damping settings, and so can give the right level of damping for road conditions at all times, even under braking.

Thanks.

The same tech is used on cars. Would it surprise you that BMW motorrad uses the same system? Read the owners manual or the press release. It will explain the difference between the ESA2 and dynamic ESA. It is actively monitoring and adjusting the suspension.

The future is whatever colour you want.
 
Time for Christmas so taking a break :)

If anyone one is bored and has the mathematical and mechanical skill in statics please can they calculate the angular displacement at the compliance bush (if any) and post the geometrical solution here :)

Maybe a life size model made with lengths of wood with bolts for the pivot points, and slots for the sliding parts, would reveal the answer - it wouldn't need two forks so could be flat.

Also signing out for Christmas - have a good one everyone!

Fred
 
Really, up yours tosser


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Show me something definitive and I’ll happily eat my hat. Anyway, it’s supposed to be the season of goodwill so let’s call it a day.
 
Time for Christmas so taking a break :)

If anyone one is bored and has the mathematical and mechanical skill in statics please can they calculate the angular displacement at the compliance bush (if any) and post the geometrical solution here :)

It is irrelevant in the discussion here. The movement occurs, just like which way do you turn a key to unlock a door.

Do you care to answer my questions.
 
My word that’s an incredible video. Was the resonance induced on purpose, and why test it to destruction?

Sometimes something has to be done for the purpose of posting it on YouTube :D

The ground resonance is the result of several conditions. Imbalance of main rotor or rotor blades, play in lead-lag dampers and differing resistance to lead and lag of the rotor blades, oleo legs inflated to different pressures, high wind conditions etc, can't remember it all. If the rotor blades are not sped up or slowed down quickly this situation can develop. All rotors goes through a rpm where resonance occurs and this range of rpm has to be crossed quickly. To slow the blades down helicopters are equipped with rotor brakes. The engine is uncoupled from the drive train by either a free turbine or in older designs a clutch with a freewheel coupling (this allows for the uncoupling of the drive to the rotor in case the rotor rpm is higher than the drive train max rpm ie autorotation where rotor speed is preserved) to allow rapid acceleration of the rotors. Testing to destruction proves the design model and provides data for improving the design.
 
It is irrelevant in the discussion here. The movement occurs, just like which way do you turn a key to unlock a door.

Do you care to answer my questions.

It’s utterly relevant to understanding how the telever systems works and it’s possible weak point - I was hoping that there were some real mechanical engineers on here who could to the maths, unfortunately no one has come forward yet.
 
Maybe a life size model made with lengths of wood with bolts for the pivot points, and slots for the sliding parts, would reveal the answer - it wouldn't need two forks so could be flat.

Also signing out for Christmas - have a good one everyone!

Fred

If I still had my meccano :)
 
Couldn’t have a worthwhile conversation as Davy (my techy friend) is offshore but he’s sent me a web address to looksee its https://www.tonyfoale.com.
Not really had a look myself as I’ve not got permanent internet connection where I am.

Thanks for the link. Interesting web site, though unfortunately the software he sells doesn't help us with the Telelever system - to quote from the web site: "What it will not do. It will not handle any system with sliding elements such as the Saxon/BMW telelever type."

Fred
 
Couldn’t have a worthwhile conversation as Davy (my techy friend) is offshore but he’s sent me a web address to looksee its https://www.tonyfoale.com.
Not really had a look myself as I’ve not got permanent internet connection where I am.

His software does all sorts of very interesting stuff, but guess what - it doesn’t do Telelever!
 
Sorry guys I can’t get back in touch with my techy friend I’m saying techy cause he designs hydraulic systems so I thought he would know more than me (he does). I’m sure I had a book by Tony Foale but I’m on my daughter’s farm so can’t look and my internet connection is mobile and iffy.
 
Looking at a few pictures of this online, it occurs to me that this might work better if the stanchions were rigidly fixed to the yoke instead of via the flexible joint links, and any slight angle change required in operation due to suspension movement was instead provided by the central steering bearing/axle assembly being able to tilt (items 9 and 4 in the drawing). This would then not affect the rigidity of the steering link to the wheel, though the downside would be that the slight tilting motion would be transmitted to the handlebars unless these were not bolted directly to the yoke, but instead were connected by some sort of linkage which could take up this motion, along the same lines as the Duolever.

318984.jpg


Another, perhaps simpler suggestion would be to have the stanchions bolted into a traditional double yoke so that they are braced at a fixed angle, then put the bearing on the wishbone arm in a sliding carrier which would slide fore and aft enough to take up the movement, or alternatively connect the bearing via a telescopic splined link to the sliders - effectively making the lower arm vary in length as required so that the attachment to the lower fork sliders is able to follow a straight path rather than an arc. You could maybe even achieve the same thing with eccentric bearing attachments at the pivot points of the lower arm which would be better as it would always be a rigid attachment with no movement possible.

Fred
 
It’s utterly relevant to understanding how the telever systems works and it’s possible weak point - I was hoping that there were some real mechanical engineers on here who could to the maths, unfortunately no one has come forward yet.

The weakness of a telelever is the weight of the frame to support it, lack of steering feel, complexity in both design and manufacture.

To calculate the variable angle you need 2 sides of a triangle and a included angle. We have one side of the triangle which is the wheelbase. Next we need the distance from centre of rear axle to the steering pivot on the top clamp. This is not known to anybody but the designers. The included angle can be measured or calculated if we have the height of the steering pivot from ground. Another measurement that is not known to the public. The 3rd side will vary and represents the front suspension. So how do you want to calculate this movement or are you hoping to be part of the design team? The fact is that on a telelever system the front axle moves through an arc (the animation is not very clear) and telescopic forks move in a linear way. Not easy to make a mock-up of the telelever that can be used to demonstrate the arc.

So once again the angle of movement is really not relevant to the discussion here. So instead of posting on here demanding somebody does the thinking for you, just pick up the phone to the mothership and demand an answer. Surely that would satisfy your search for enlightenment.
 
The weakness of a telelever is the weight of the frame to support it, lack of steering feel, complexity in both design and manufacture.

To calculate the variable angle you need 2 sides of a triangle and a included angle. We have one side of the triangle which is the wheelbase. Next we need the distance from centre of rear axle to the steering pivot on the top clamp. This is not known to anybody but the designers. The included angle can be measured or calculated if we have the height of the steering pivot from ground. Another measurement that is not known to the public. The 3rd side will vary and represents the front suspension. So how do you want to calculate this movement or are you hoping to be part of the design team? The fact is that on a telelever system the front axle moves through an arc (the animation is not very clear) and telescopic forks move in a linear way. Not easy to make a mock-up of the telelever that can be used to demonstrate the arc.

So once again the angle of movement is really not relevant to the discussion here. So instead of posting on here demanding somebody does the thinking for you, just pick up the phone to the mothership and demand an answer. Surely that would satisfy your search for enlightenment.

I thought one of the advantages of Telelever is that, unlike telescopic forks, you don't need a very strong steering head at a high location to take all the front suspension loads, so the bike frame can actually be smaller/lighter with the main load bearing attachment being lower down at the front of the engine.

Not sure that the lack of steering feel is an established fact, and opinions seem to go both ways on this, but the slight give in the joint links which connect the stanchions to the yoke may be a factor in this, and I grant you that even if not really much more complex, it does have more parts to find space for than a telescopic fork, and pretty much precludes a single central radiator, so makes the cooling system more complex too.

Regarding the working out of the change in angle of the stanchions which we have been debating, and which may have a bearing on the crimp loosening problem, I think it is a bit simpler than you describe. The angle we are after is the one between the brown coloured link in the diagram below, and the adjacent black coloured link. These two together with the blue coloured link make up a triangle.

Televermovie.gif


In this diagram we need to know the length of the bottom wishbone/link coloured blue, which is the distance from the axis of its pivots to the point where the lower fork sliders attach, effectively the centre of the ball joint. I will choose the names for these distances to correspond with the online calculator I have found for doing the required calculations, so let's call this distance c.

We then need to know the vertical distance between the link pivot axis and a line going though the centre of the two joint links in the yoke to which the stanchions attach - let's call this distance a.

Both of these two are fixed and should be reasonably easy to measure.

We then need to measure the length of the brown coloured part which is the vertical distance between the attachment point of the lower fork sliders to the wishbone and the stanchion attachment point to the yoke, effectively the centre of the joint link. This has a maximum and a minimum value and we need both to calculate the maximum and minimum angle of the stanchions, and hence the range of angular movement the stanchion is forced to move through.

The maximum is easy - just support the bike so that the front wheel is off the ground, and measure the stanchion from the centre of the joint link which attaches it to the yoke, to a distance down from the yoke which corresponds to the wishbone attachment level, effectively the centre of the ball joint. This point on the stanchion may be inside the lower slider but its distance inside should be possible to determine by inspection - let's call this distance b1.

The minimum is more difficult as it would not be practical to fully compress the suspension. However if we believe BMW's published figure for maximum suspension travel then we can simply subtract this from the measured value b1 - so let's call this minimum figure distance b2.

We can then use well established methods to calculate all the angles of the triangle, firstly using distances a, b1, and c and then again using distances a, b2, and c. We can then compare the two angles between the brown and black sides for both calculations and see how much it changes between minimum and maximum suspension compression. This angle is designated angle C in the following calculator.

This online calculator will do the job for us: https://www.triangle-calculator.com/?what=sss

For more theory on this see: https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/trig-solving-sss-triangles.html
 
I don’t demand anything but it is clear that no mechanical engineer here can do the calculation or isn’t interested, I was hoping there would be be

It’s a bit of kinematic modelling that I’ll have to do myself - I just want to determine if there is any significant angular movement between the sliders and the top fixing, if there is, then that would mean stress on the crimps, if not then there would be no stress caused by normal action of the suspension.
 
Yes, you can make the mock up but to calculate it you need the missing data.

And, yes, there is stress on the crimps when the fixing is rigid. As I have said before, the front axle moves through an arc meaning that the trail increases the more the suspension is compressed. To me this was very much evident when I was tracking the R1100S, you needed some proper push on the bars to turn while trail braking and in the corners it was mega stable. Modded the telelever to decrease the trail eventually. The 11S has a ball at the top to mount the top yoke, makes you think. For normal road riding the flexible mount would suffice I think but any big displacement causes enough stress on the crimp to eventually work it loose. Just like the bonded elastomer damping in semi-rigid rotor heads or the primary suspension of our bogies.

I think the angle was buried somewhere in the press release blurb but I managed to figure it out so hopefully in the ball park. You don't need a mechanical engineer, just a mathematician or somebody with a grasp of geometry.
 
I will have to measure the bike and do the geometry, but it’s quite tricky to get accurate measurements off the bike with a ruler and protractor :)
 
I will have to measure the bike and do the geometry, but it’s quite tricky to get accurate measurements off the bike with a ruler and protractor :)

You will also need to check it all angles of steering and amount of inbuilt flex, as that will change the straight ahead measurements. It will need a complex program to work out all the possible measurements and graph them in a model. Something the Naval Arcs in our place could do, but it would take me hem some time.
 
I will have to measure the bike and do the geometry, but it’s quite tricky to get accurate measurements off the bike with a ruler and protractor :)

You don't need to try to measure angles , so the protractor is not needed. Just need to measure four distances as per my last post. In that, note that when I talked about measuring a vertical distance I meant vertical with respect to the left and right sides of the bike, not vertical front to back.

Fred
 


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