Hilltop - is it worth it?

[JohnnyBoxer]

Sir, you win first prize.

Your prize is to listen to my bike (full volume now please) doing a full throttle run on Geoff's dyno

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Andres

Is the chain too tight?
May sap power

 

[spoonz]

Had the flash done on mine. Was it worth it? Mmmmm well it's certainly a lot smoother and runs better. Particularly when cold or on the motorway. Much more powerful though? Dunno. Hard to say. Have to say I am sceptical about the size of the power gains, but then it does seem a little too easy to prove one way or the other on another dyno, so why lie?

All in all I decided it probably was, but then I had just spent £240

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You can’t prove the pre run figure wrong unless you had a base line dyno somewhere else. Their post dyno runs are not higher than anyone else so another dyno run after the fact will likely be similar.

The contentious bit is the pre run figure which is often low to very low which u now can’t contest unless you unflash the ecu. Which no one is going to do.

 

[Skid06]

mine was recorded at somewhere in the 80's pre remap, which did seem very low and the Hilltop guys said it was one of the worst they had seen. I'd be very dubious but the guy before me had just had his pre-run at a 103 bhp ish (pretty reasonable) - why would they fudge mine and not his?

My GS was also very low pre and post HT ..was brand new though , my 1299 Panigale was a different matter, absolute transformation

 

[Tractors are go]

My GS was also very low pre and post HT ..was brand new though , my 1299 Panigale was a different matter, absolute transformation

Does it really matter what the figure is, all that counts is if you are "happy" with any changes to your motorcycle.

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[smudger64]

Does it really matter what the figure is, all that counts is if you are "happy" with any changes to your motorcycle.

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Which is why I didn’t think the extra cost of the dyno was worth it. Seems unrealistically optimistic at best and down and out bent at worse.

I was persuaded by the reports of the bike being smoother and pulling cleaner. It certainly does that. Which makes me wonder why bother with the controversy of the dynos? Just sell it on the improvement to the fuelling, as that’s what most bods on here, me included, are happy to testify to.

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Remember what a Dyno run is, accelerating a roller for a few seconds, and calculating the torque required to achieve the acceleration that was measured in those few, short seconds. (Then calculating HP from the torque calculation.)

Also remember that a Dyno run doesn’t simulate road conditions because drag doesn’t increase on the Dyno as it does on the road.

And even the best Dyno run only exercises about 6-8 of the 300+ cells of the fuel table.

The intake conditions in the moments before the throttle is snapped open are critical to the amount and rate of acceleration of the roller. For instance, if the roller of the Dyno was decelerating the read wheel seconds before the throttle was snapped open, the bike intake was dry of fuel (due to Overrun Fuel Cutoff), this results in low AFR for the first couple seconds and makes a big change in the total acceleration possible.

If I were having a Dyno run done, I would capture data with a GS-911 at the same time. Then I could check for correct initial conditions which would mean that the bike was running in Closed Loop for 3-5 seconds before the throttle was snapped open and was not in Overrun Fuel Cutoff just before.

 

[Morety]

Am i missing something here? Surely the ONLY point of re-mapping any Boxer twin is to ensure that AF ratios are set up so that you get close to the ideal at WOT, idle and all revs in between?

Judging by BMW's standard (new) bike dyno runs, they seem to have done a pretty decent job straight from the factory, at least with the 1250. The only dyno runs I've seen for the 1200 look a bit more of a mixed bag but part of that surely is down to where the oxygen sensors are fitted. The runs where the 02 readings were taken from headers looked much better than those taken post-CAT, as you'd expect, so the only conclusions that I can see from this are that:

1) For the most part it shouldn't prove necessary (at least from what I've seen for W/C motors, so post 2013 bikes?);
2) The only other point of doing it would be for a de-CAT full system change or air filter change or both;
3) An industry has grown up around the "insurance" of getting away from "dangerously lean run conditions" when often a "proper" dyno run should show that standard, there isn't any "dangerously lean" condition.


I can see the point where there may be lean spots within areas of the rev range for emissions compliance, but at some point this must surely become part of an MOT check, so defeating environmental changes which are there for the betterment of health and the environment has to be a morally contentious decision. Still, if smoothing out power and torque figures can be effected through changes to variable valve timing and more sophisticated ignition changes I can see how this might be possible, but the boxer, shift cam aside, doesn't use variable valve timing...so what the heck is being altered except for AFR which as some of us have seen, seems not too far off from standard? I don't buy it that BMW are selling bikes that "need mending" from the factory. Plenty of high miles bog standard examples are testament to this.

I've ridden the 1150 standard and it fuelled just fine and was lovely lower down the rev range especially. My 1200 is bog standard and fuels perfectly based on the seat of the pants dyno. It has enough power as standard, more than enough for what it is. If I wanted more, well there's plenty of choice for more powerful sports-touring oriented bikes. This isn't a topic that seems likely to get agreement between forum members any time soon, so you pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[Warlord]

Hear Hear

+1

 

[gman1969]

My 2016RT had one minor little spot which I guess could of been solved through some tweaking but it never bothered me enough to spend a few hundred to sort as it was that insignificant. My 1250GS is faultless through all the rev range so whatever was there before has been ironed out.

 

[stanley]

Got my LC booked in for next week

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[malcopopolo]

Enjoy. It really does make a difference.

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[jimbo]

More importanrly, what explanation did they give for such a poor BHP figure in the first place?

Did they give you a detailed reason why your bike was so low on power?

Because if they claim to have 'fixed' it, then the remedy was totally within their ability, so they would know exactly why it ran so badly in the first place.

What was their reason?.... because the mapping doesn't change, none of your engine components were changed.

Or did they voodoo you....

I don't think so. their process is
- dyno it and show the customer a number
- download their magic beans
- dyno it and show the customer a new and hopefully bigger number

working out WHY is made less bhp would take time and effort.

 

[stanley]

Enjoy. It really does make a difference.

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Yep... It's my third trip there

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[Wierpig]

Hear Hear

+1

What, you can hear him twice?

 

[stick]

No he is from Walsall , its the echo from the famous Garden Shed ………..Boing Boing

 

[Warlord]

No he is from Walsall , its the echo from the famous Garden Shed ………..Boing Boing

No Stick, I'm not from Walsall.... I just live here at the moment

 

[TonyZZR]

Had my 1200LC done today. Was it worth it? YES Bike feels so much smoother and the throttle response is transformed. I am not interested in the numbers, the bike just feels better throughout the rev range, its just what I had hoped for.

 

[stick]

No Stick, I'm not from Walsall.... I just live here at the moment

Pray tell from where were you spawned &#55357;&#56384;&#55357;&#56384;

 

[stick]

Had my 1200LC done today. Was it worth it? YES Bike feels so much smoother and the throttle response is transformed. I am not interested in the numbers, the bike just feels better throughout the rev range, its just what I had hoped for.

A man that speaks the truth ..... again , may you unbelievers be dunked in the waters of uncertainty &#55358;&#56618;&#55358;&#56618;&#55358;&#56618;

 

[spoonz]

I think Hilltop reap what they sow to a large extent. If they sold it for what it is which is probably worth the money, there would be no discussion. But they try and make u feel all rosey about the extra cost by having dyno runs that are at best dubious and at worst out outright con.

Would I hilltop my bike, probably but I would just have the flash. I could get a more meaningful dyno graph from my local primary school.

So I’m a believer in the flash but not the circus they put on around it.